Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Silophant
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Silophant » December 30th, 2015, 3:38 pm

One more year for the powers that be to potentially realize that Enhanced Bus/aBRT makes way more sense than a streetcar? Sounds good.

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Anondson
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Anondson » December 30th, 2015, 3:59 pm

Get this on the Itasca Group's agenda! :D

trigonalmayhem

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby trigonalmayhem » December 30th, 2015, 4:00 pm

A rapid transit tunnel still makes 100x more sense than either streetcar or fake BRT.

Tcmetro
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Tcmetro » December 30th, 2015, 5:04 pm

From what I understand, this is because the environmental review has yet to be completed.

Also, I seem to recall that the Metropolitan Council will become the lead agency for the project. I'm not sure how swiftly they want to pursue the line, but if there is still some of that sweet federal cash available for streetcars then I'd imagine it will progress relatively quickly.

twincitizen
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby twincitizen » October 12th, 2016, 2:54 pm

I guess we missed this article (or I did anyways) from October, looking at the growing tax collection from the "value capture" district that could one day help fund this line: http://www.startribune.com/one-percent- ... 395707491/

1% of the City's tax capacity is now being held hostage by this line that may never get built...

As we discussed in the aBRT thread, $5MM+ annually would really help to rapidly build out the aBRT system (assuming a Minneapolis-centric route opening every other year, that's $10MM per line). Would love to see the state law modified to build out at least 4 aBRT lines, and only then allow the money to fund this streetcar line...

Ohiosotan
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Ohiosotan » November 3rd, 2016, 7:45 am

After riding the A Line on a regular basis there is no doubt that a BRT line on Central-Nicollet is the only way to go vs a snail paced streetcar stopping every couple of blocks. Here's a sample route I slapped together. As a regular rider of the 10 and 18 I would much rather take this.

Central

•Columbia Heights Transit Center
|
•St Anthony Pkwy
|
•29th Ave
|
•Lowry Ave
|
•22nd Ave
|
•18th 1/2 Ave
|
•14th Ave
|
•Broadway St NE
|
•Spring St
|
•6th St
|
•University Ave
|
•2nd Ave & 3rd St
|

Nicollet

|
•Washington Ave
|
•5th St
|
•9th St
|
•Grant St
|
•18th St
|
•Franklin Ave
|
•24th St
|
•26th St
|
•Lake St
|
•32nd St
|
•35th St
|
•38th St
|
•43rd St
|
•46th St
|
•50th St
|
•Diamond Lake
|
•60th St
|
•66th St

mattaudio
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby mattaudio » November 3rd, 2016, 8:04 am

And we could have this under construction next year, if we had the will for it.

acs
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby acs » November 3rd, 2016, 8:53 am

But instead let's lock up 4mm/year in property taxes for a trolley nobody outside of the area supports.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby DanPatchToget » November 3rd, 2016, 9:13 am

Plus assuming this goes down Nicollet Mall that means having to rip up that stretch again to install rail.

talindsay
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby talindsay » November 3rd, 2016, 9:54 am

Well, I ride the A line periodically (my daughter rides it daily) and I like it and all, but am in favor of Nicollet-Central being a streetcar. But
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Tiller
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Tiller » November 3rd, 2016, 1:37 pm

I'd (metaphorically) vote against the streetcar 'cuz that makes a cut-and-cover tunnel down Nicollet more difficult. I want streetcars, but for right now, here and on Hennepin, aBRT > streetcar.

SkyScraperKid

Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby SkyScraperKid » November 3rd, 2016, 1:53 pm

The midtown Greenway IS the route that should be prioritized for streetcar running the trench not many options exist to make it feasible to run busses. Midtown streetcar would cross the orange, blue, and green METRO lines and would cross Hennepin, Nicollet, Chicago, and A line Rapid bus lines. Midtown streetcar will be a much more major segment than Nicollet. Seems silly to prioritize Nicollet for streetcar over Midtown streetcar. In five years from now green line extension, orange, and D line (Chicago Ave. rapid bus line) should all be open/opening and not having the Midtown streetcar up and running by then would be a big lost opportunity.

I say let's build a rapid bus line down Nicollet/Central today, then we can always shuffle those buses to a later route and build a streetcar 10-20 years later. Bigger picture guys. Mobility for ALL, not shiny pretty trains for some. :roll:

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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby EOst » November 3rd, 2016, 2:09 pm

Counterpoint: A Nicollet-Central streetcar--especially if the full line were completed--would be a marquee attraction for the Twin Cities and, arguably, one of the best-planned streetcar lines in America, running along a single continuously dense corridor with its own transit-only ROW from Grant St all the way to 6th St NE. It would also be a far more pleasant ride than any of the arterial buses.

Just sayin'.

MNdible
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby MNdible » November 3rd, 2016, 2:17 pm

Yep. I still think there are some operational concerns with the streetcar, but I agree with Eost -- it will be a great project that meaningfully improves mobility for residents, and will revolutionize the ability for visitors to visit these neighborhoods.

acs
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby acs » November 3rd, 2016, 2:25 pm

Uber and Lyft already revolutionized how visitors get around the city, no need to spend hundreds of millions we don't have just for them.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby MNdible » November 3rd, 2016, 2:39 pm

Ooh, breathless talk about Uber is so Bob "Again" Carney retro.

talindsay
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby talindsay » November 3rd, 2016, 2:56 pm

I agree with both SkyscraperKid and Eost (and Taylor Swift, obvs). The Midtown Streetcar certainly *should* be a higher priority, as it would have a more meaningful impact on actual mobility in Minneapolis. But the Nicollet/Central streetcar would really make a difference in the *experience* of the city, which has some real value too, and clearly the city has chosen to prioritize it. I do think that for it to meaningfully help the city it can't be implemented as a "starter" segment though - the whole line as envisioned, running from approx. Lake Street into Northeast should be built.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby mattaudio » November 3rd, 2016, 2:57 pm

EOst wrote:its own transit-only ROW from Grant St all the way to 6th St NE.'.
Uh wouldn't it share ROW north of Washington and through NE? Remember ye ole Toyota Matrix blocking the streetcar in the Northeast rendering we've seen. Also, may be more comfortable than arterial buses, but will it run anywhere close to as frequent?

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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby RailBaronYarr » November 3rd, 2016, 3:04 pm

Okay, how about this: outside a few people attending Railvolution conferences (and sorry, Minneapolis hosted in 2014), nobody travels anywhere to see a city's streetcar.

As always, I 100% agree that streetcars offer a better ride and definitely more comfortable capacity than articulated buses. More important than ride quality, they're better designed for people with disabilities. (and, as always, a reminder) But my value judgment to say that the city would be better off spending a roughly equal sum of money building Midtown Rail [serving more projected riders, and more people below the poverty line, and more drastically cutting trip times vs the current bus or even the planned aBRT bus along Lake than the streetcar does relative to the 18] OR using the same sum of money to build the many planned aBRT routes across the city [Chicago-Fremont, full Nic-Central, extended Lake St, Hennepin, and West Broadway are estimated at $331m in $2020. Pick 3 of those in place of the starter Nic/Central streetcar and run the numbers of total job accessibility improvement for low-income residents]. I want a streetcar. I love riding them. It would be awesome, and Nicollet/Central is the best place in the region to build one. Just not at the opportunity cost of all that other stuff and the likely political backlash against transit spending generally we'd get - even from many 'progressive' city residents.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby twincitizen » November 3rd, 2016, 3:14 pm

Agreed with most of the above.

Midtown is obviously a far greater mobility enhancement, but Nic-Central as a streetcar has value too for the reasons stated above. The two projects shouldn't necessarily be competing for local dollars (well they would technically compete at FTA): Met Council/CTIB should look at Midtown as an obvious link in the regional light rail system that would boost ridership all around. The City should continue to pursue streetcars (with as much dedicated ROW as possible), with the dual caveat that it absolutely must not be slower than the buses it replaces, and for chrissakes it has to displace/replace a significant number of buses on Nicollet Mall. The streetcar isn't worth building if it's super slow and/or stuck behind buses all damn day.

Given the delays in implementing this thing, and hindsight being 20/20, I think the following is true:

1. Nicollet-Central aBRT should have been allowed to move forward, and aBRT stations (adaptable to streetcar in future) should have been built along with the Nic Mall rebuild. aBRT could have been running next year with the Mall reopening!

2. Given said delays in Nic-Central streetcar and the fact that there will be zero appetite for ripping up the Mall again (even a little bit!) any time soon, the City really ought to open an honest dialogue about building the Washington-Broadway link first. It would serve the red hot North Loop (which has pretty weak transit), and West Broadway, which would obviously be a massive boost to investment in that area. This makes sense on equity considerations alone. I'm not saying Broadway should definitely be built first, but I am saying it should seriously be considered (cost-benefit analysis, racial/geographic equity, etc.)


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