Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Silophant
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Silophant » September 24th, 2013, 11:24 am

Konante wrote:
twincitizen wrote:Questions shall linger no longer: the Transportation & Public Works Committee has unanimously endorsed the AA's recommendation of a starter streetcar line from Lake Street to approximately 4th St. NE (further NE if funding available)
The Downtown Journal's story says "The City Council’s Transportation & Public Works Committee has signed off on an advisory committee’s recommendation to build a 3.4-mile streetcar line that would run from Lake Street to 5th Street Northeast, crossing the river on the Hennepin Avenue Bridge."

So, to clarify, is the starter line running over the Hennepin bridge into NE? Or is it stopping before Washington Ave in the CBD/Gateway area?

It's southern terminus is Lake St, and it runs north from there, crossing the river on the Hennepin Ave. Bridge, and running into NE at least as far as 5th St.

Tcmetro
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Tcmetro » September 24th, 2013, 11:27 am

The only way I could see space being taken away from the Nicollet Garage is if the Heywood II garage gets built soon.

There is a large site located just northeast of the Superior Plating building that could be used as a streetcar OMF.

mamundsen
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mamundsen » September 24th, 2013, 12:06 pm

Do you think it ends at 5th st because that gives us another "trouble" intersection with Central? It's somewhat confusing/hazardous already.

David Greene
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby David Greene » September 25th, 2013, 9:40 pm

lordmoke wrote:The two surviving car barns are the Superior Plating building and then the North Barn, which is on 24th and Washington Ave N. That one is a furniture warehouse or something.
The Colonial Warehouse on N. 3rd was also a car barn at one time. Or maybe just shops, I can't remember.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mulad » September 26th, 2013, 3:24 am

Yes, it's from the horse-drawn era, though.

UptownSport
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby UptownSport » September 29th, 2013, 10:22 am

One question I had was answered by their map;

http://cityoflakes.maps.arcgis.com/home ... 01,45.0612

Line crosses to Hennepin at Washington.

A lot's been discussed about 'jams' on Nicollet mall, any talk as to how this is to be alleviated?
Jams being busses stuck behind one-another for whatever reason.

seanrichardryan
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby seanrichardryan » November 3rd, 2013, 11:43 pm

Kstp, working hard to keep you informed.

http://m.kstp.com/article.html#!/57601/ ... 4bdb36a571
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widin007
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby widin007 » November 4th, 2013, 2:44 am

I can't believe they cited the Cato Institute in that story. A report called "The Great Streetcar Conspiracy"... groan

mullen
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mullen » November 4th, 2013, 7:11 am

i was living in tampa at the time the streetcar was in development. this "news" story is typical kstp bs. the line is basically a tourist trolly. of course they would focus on this as it is a "boondoggle". was badly conceived, designed and run.

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woofner
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby woofner » November 19th, 2013, 1:49 pm

Today's Transportation Public Works meeting had an action item authorizing staff to join forces with the Met Council to "conduct environmental review and pre-project development." Staff explained that this is basically a mechanism to hand off the project to the Met Council, which is good. However, this phase, of which "public engagement will be an important part" is expected to last until Fall 2014, at which point the FTA Small Starts application process will finally begin! So we don't even have Preliminary Engineering until Fall 2014! I'm not aware of any other streetcar project in the country that has gone through this amount of time-wasting, consultant-fattening public process. Clearly they had made the decision 5 years ago to build this streetcar - so build it already!
"Who rescued whom!"

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby RailBaronYarr » November 19th, 2013, 6:53 pm

I think I asked this in a different thread.. but what non-transit projects have to go through this much rigor, time, consultancy, etc? Hell, adding a lane on I-94 for a portion of the stretch from Rogers to St Michael got funded just months after Zelle, engineers, and academics said doing so wouldn't be a wise long-term move. I've had my issues with the seeming foregone conclusion of a streetcar as the choice, but if that's the case, then just build it already instead of wasting money in the meantime.

Chauncey87
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Chauncey87 » November 19th, 2013, 9:09 pm

Subway Subway Subway Subway

Elevated rail would have to be at least 60-80 feet high for it not to interfere with the skyways. My guess would make both options seem "cost effective". I just do not see the benefit of any sort of trolly system. Buses stack and having rode along Nicollet mall more times then I can count nothing is more frustrating then watching your bus have to sit though two or three light cycles. How on earth will a trolly be any faster? Considering a bus will be able to move into the opposite lane to pass if the bus in front has to park for a while. How will a trolly be able to do that? When MPLS had hundreds of miles of trolly tracks it was dense enough then to turn just about each route into its own bus #. So wouldn't the next step be to increase transit capacity? What better way to do that then full on grade segregated rail?
Would a trolly have better capacity then a bus? or even an express bus? If the answer is equal or really close then this whole trolly idea needs to really get put on the back burner and the subway idea should be looked at a lot closer.

orangevening
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby orangevening » November 19th, 2013, 11:26 pm

Ok. I'll bite....
Chauncey87 wrote:Subway Subway Subway Subway
Too much money.
Elevated rail would have to be at least 60-80 feet high for it not to interfere with the skyways. My guess would make both options seem "cost effective".
I havn't heard anyone talk about elevated rail for Nicolett [sic]. Anyway you could incorporate the skyways if one wanted/had the $
I just do not see the benefit of any sort of trolly system.


I know the are basically interchangeable, but when I think of "trolley" I think of a heritage line like Como-Harriet. Modern streetcars are nice. I see the benefit of streetcar in the intangibles it brings.
Buses stack and having rode along Nicollet mall more times then I can count nothing is more frustrating then watching your bus have to sit though two or three light cycles. How on earth will a trolly be any faster? Considering a bus will be able to move into the opposite lane to pass if the bus in front has to park for a while. How will a trolly be able to do that?
valid concern. But I think there are ways to fix that. Timing of lights better. Keeping Nicolett [sic] mall moving (doing something with taxis would help). Moving all bus off of Nicolett [sic]. Mark Andrew brought up the idea of having the streetcar go on Marquette or Hennipen [sic].
When MPLS had hundreds of miles of trolly tracks it was dense enough then to turn just about each route into its own bus #. So wouldn't the next step be to increase transit capacity? What better way to do that then full on grade segregated rail?
Huh? we are not dense enough for a "trolly" but dense enough for a subway?
Would a trolly have better capacity then a bus? or even an express bus? If the answer is equal or really close then this whole trolly idea needs to really get put on the back burner and the subway idea should be looked at a lot closer.
A streetcar has higher capacity than a regular bus. And most express buses use regular buses ( I think your thinking of the accordion style buses). A streetcar provides a much nicer ride.

If they can't build a subway from Uptown to Downtown there is little hope for anything else at least for 20 years. A streetcar brings different (notice I said "different" not "better") benefits than a subway does. IMO Nicolett [sic], if they can figure out Nicolett [sic] Mall, is prefect for a streetcar (but I live two blocks off Nicolett [sic] so I'm biased)

Chauncey87
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Chauncey87 » November 20th, 2013, 12:51 am

Thank you for your well written reply. I was saying Minneapolis was dense enough 60 years ago for a trolly. I should have wrote that a little better. When you say a trolly has a higher capacity then the city bus I was basing my capacity assumption on the trolly being of a comparable size to a bus.

Yes the trolly can provide fast travel times along Nicolett [sic] if as you said light timing and moving most of the buses off Nicolett [sic] to other streets. However they should just move some of the bus routes to another N/S street. Solving the bus stacking issue. Making bus travel faster then the at times hour long trip from the top of the mall to the bottom is solved. I really love steel on steel action I really do, but I feel the streetcar/trolly idea is very shortsighted.

If Minneapolis is serious about bringing the cities population back to over 500 thousand. Along with the added day time population of already over 100 thousand that who knows how much more will grow in the next 20 years. Then subway should really get another look today. Instead of 20-30 years from now when it might make more sense to look at going underground.

My fear is since the trolly seems more and more likely to be built is Minneapolis will look at it and wonder why they just put in some cost effective ideas to speed up the buses. A trolly line will last decades if they build the line on some of the densest roads I would think a subway would have a better chance of being built on the moon then in Minneapolis.

talindsay
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby talindsay » November 20th, 2013, 10:17 am

Streetcar is the preferred term, but if we're going to say "trolley" can we at least spell it right?

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby FISHMANPET » November 20th, 2013, 10:18 am

New York City is having a hard time finding the money to build subways, where do you think we're going to find the money?
Last edited by FISHMANPET on November 20th, 2013, 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tom H.
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Tom H. » November 20th, 2013, 11:01 am

FISHMANPET wrote:New York City is having a hard time finding the money to build cities, where do you think we're going to find the money?
I don't know why, but that typo is making me laugh. Assuming it is a typo.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby FISHMANPET » November 20th, 2013, 11:26 am

I have no idea what you're talking about...
*innocent whistle*

mulad
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mulad » November 20th, 2013, 3:46 pm

trolly is troll-y

UptownSport
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby UptownSport » November 20th, 2013, 7:43 pm

Chauncey87 wrote:Subway Subway Subway Subway

Elevated rail would have to be at least 60-80 feet high for it not to interfere with the skyways.
Both would get the vehicle out of the weather and allow it to move without interference from peds, bicycles (Just talking about a Rte 6 ride stuck behind a bicycle on Hennepin, driver was late already and getting upset) auto and busses. A trolly or "BRT" will contend with all these things.

I think the trolly will fit the 'eat street' and downtown section of Nicollet hand in glove, but Chauncey is right that sooner or later Minneapolis will need to go underground, it's how many poorly thought out 'compromise' systems that will physically or financially delay this that will be the question.

Undergrounds are added on to all the time, nothing says we need to build a several mile section.


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