Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
orangevening
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby orangevening » November 20th, 2013, 8:17 pm

Both would get the vehicle out of the weather and allow it to move without interference from peds, bicycles (Just talking about a Rte 6 ride stuck behind a bicycle on Hennepin, driver was late already and getting upset) auto and busses. A trolly or "BRT" will contend with all these things.
I'm militant on bike infrastructure and in support for pretty much anything, but even I knew the "sharrows" on Hennepin would never work. I'd love to see a Bus (and maybe taxis as much as I hate them) only lane there especially if Nicolett [sic] buses get moved to Hennipen [sic]. The 1st ave lame pseudo cycle track would need to be improved though.


I think the trolly will fit the 'eat street' and downtown section of Nicollet hand in glove, but Chauncey is right that sooner or later Minneapolis will need to go underground, it's how many poorly thought out 'compromise' systems that will physically or financially delay this that will be the question.

Undergrounds are added on to all the time, nothing says we need to build a several mile section.
I wish the trolly/trolley/streetcar route would have taken 3rd ave or the river rather than Hennepin. I think it would have served St. Anthony Main better (and it needs it). Once over the river there is little difference between Hennepin or Central.

This probably deserves a new thread, but where do people think Minneapolis's (or St. Paul for that matter) first "real" tunnel for transit will be. Hennepin downtown to Uptown? 5th/6th street downtown and bury current lines?

talindsay
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby talindsay » November 20th, 2013, 8:48 pm

I don't think there will be any "real" tunnels for Minneapolis transit, unless things change dramatically in the next hundred years. I think the economics of subways for midsize cities of medium density, shaky even in the post war era, are completely politically unrealistic today. There just isn't enough congestion to make surface running untenable, and as long as grade separation is only a more desirable option it won't be chosen.

If a subway had been built forty years ago we would be using the heck out of it; but it was never required here and so it isn't going to change now. sorry, i too would love it.

The best we can hope for is short sections of grade separation in truly necessary places on very high ridership lines; and even that will be rare given that they chose not to use this approach at Snelling on University, the most obvious spot for this.

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Silophant
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Silophant » November 20th, 2013, 10:04 pm

talindsay wrote:The best we can hope for is short sections of grade separation in truly necessary places on very high ridership lines;
And parks.

orangevening
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby orangevening » November 21st, 2013, 8:58 am

talindsay wrote:I don't think there will be any "real" tunnels for Minneapolis transit, unless things change dramatically in the next hundred years. I think the economics of subways for midsize cities of medium density, shaky even in the post war era, are completely politically unrealistic today. There just isn't enough congestion to make surface running untenable, and as long as grade separation is only a more desirable option it won't be chosen.

If a subway had been built forty years ago we would be using the heck out of it; but it was never required here and so it isn't going to change now. sorry, i too would love it.

The best we can hope for is short sections of grade separation in truly necessary places on very high ridership lines; and even that will be rare given that they chose not to use this approach at Snelling on University, the most obvious spot for this.
I agree, but I don't think it's that far away. 3c made it relatively far. I mostly just asked as fantasy/thinking aloud type of question.

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Nathan
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Nathan » November 21st, 2013, 9:17 am

personally I'm confused why a number of you think subways and street cars are mutually exclusive. most major cities with good transit systems I've been to successfully have both, creating a diverse transit network. for example both Toronto and Oslo have simple but very practical subways, with a morecomplex set of street cacars on top for shorter trips. I don't think we have the population to support a subway yet, but that this streetcar could definitely compliment a future subway system.

orangevening
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby orangevening » November 21st, 2013, 11:22 am

fotoapparatic wrote:personally I'm confused why a number of you think subways and street cars are mutually exclusive. most major cities with good transit systems I've been to successfully have both, creating a diverse transit network. for example both Toronto and Oslo have simple but very practical subways, with a morecomplex set of street cacars on top for shorter trips. I don't think we have the population to support a subway yet, but that this streetcar could definitely compliment a future subway system.
To me it was more about limited funds than not wanting both. You probably could add San Francisco to that list although BART/MUNI are a little different than Subway/Streetcar (or "trolly" if you will :D ) .

talindsay
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby talindsay » November 21st, 2013, 1:37 pm

Helsinki also has a basic subway along its spine, with a complex streetcar network providing good coverage of the rest of the city.

UptownSport
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby UptownSport » November 21st, 2013, 6:29 pm

How many of you drove down University frequently during heavy construction?

The 'dig' was surprisingly deep. I wonder how much more it would have really cost to bury most of it.
I drive a very old lady to her appointments frequently and try to avoid crossing University as she complains about what they've done to it-

'The streetcars weren't like this'

That extra money for cut 'n cover certainly would've made the system better, and my little driving details less negative

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Silophant
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Silophant » November 21st, 2013, 7:54 pm

I kinda thought the same thing. I guess it would have been significantly more expensive for underground stations, but I think it still would have been worth it for parts of the route. (the University, Midway, and Downtown.)

UptownSport
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby UptownSport » November 23rd, 2013, 2:42 pm

Our weather should be a consideration when comparing to other cities. While many cities have inclement weather, we have it for sooo long, and it's soooo nasty. It's hard not to feel sorry for anyone standing outside waiting for a bus or train when wind is blowing at -10°F, and watching a bus slide sideways (realizing this must be occurring all over the city at that moment) is a sobering experience.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby UptownSport » November 23rd, 2013, 3:44 pm

orangevening wrote:This probably deserves a new thread, but where do people think Minneapolis's (or St. Paul for that matter) first "real" tunnel for transit will be. Hennepin downtown to Uptown? 5th/6th street downtown and bury current lines?
https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1773

Wedgeguy
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Wedgeguy » November 23rd, 2013, 4:06 pm

St. Paul has already had a tunnel that was used for transit. It was part of the Selby Ave. Trolley line and went into the tunnel below the Cathedral, but not really sure where is came out on Selby, about which block. A portion of the tunnel is still there.

seanjg
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby seanjg » December 3rd, 2013, 7:06 pm

Some Federal dollars for Streetcars are getting freed up soon. Cincinnati's new mayor is canceling the already under construction streetcar line and $45 million in Urban Circulator grants are likely to be forfeited and re-allocated to another city.

http://citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog-532 ... oject.html

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Minneapolisite » December 6th, 2013, 8:56 pm

Was just about to post that: he wants to spend the money on a highway or trolley buses instead. I know some people get bummed about the rate of progress here regarding mass transit, but when I say it's light years ahead of Ohio, well, just look at what cities over there are doing (and shake your head in disbelief). I posted on the city of Mpls' facebook page to get their mitts on that money ASAP. And an update: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2013 ... -by-Dec-19

lordmoke
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby lordmoke » December 6th, 2013, 11:15 pm

Now they'll have part of a streetcar to go with their unfinished subway. Maybe next, Cincinnati will build half a light rail!

On a more serious note, is it actually possible for us to jump in and grab these funds somehow? I don't know how the system works.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Minneapolisite » December 7th, 2013, 8:37 pm

In a similar instance where Ohioans voted for governor Kasich who killed a rail line to connect Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati to cities with rail in other states the feds redistributed that money, which he wanted spent instead on highways (this is Ohio), and sent it all to rail projects in other states. Guessing it depends on how strong of a case we can make for all or some of those funds.

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woofner
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby woofner » December 9th, 2013, 2:13 pm

Your civic-mindedness is appreciated, but Nicollet-Central has several more years in the morass of study and planning before we can use any Federal capital dollars. Preliminary Engineering doesn't even start until 2015:

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/meetings/tpw/WCMS1P-115386
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Nick
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Nick » January 18th, 2014, 11:37 am

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/comm ... 27711.html
Taxpayers deserve the most bang for their buck. When it comes to transportation, hard-earned dollars should go toward critical road improvements, larger bus fleets or bus rapid transit (BRT), not toward a high-cost, slow-moving, obsolete technology — namely, the streetcar.

Streetcars have become the novelty du jour for Minneapolis and St. Paul city leaders. As policymakers at the Legislature, however, we are loathe to see taxpayers required to pour in hundreds of millions in new transportation dollars only to see them diverted to pay for “wants” instead of needs.

[...]

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woofner
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby woofner » January 18th, 2014, 12:54 pm

I hope no one mistakes this commentary as sincere argument, despite the wafts of common sense throughout. Osmek and Runbeck are anti-transit ideologues, as is made clear by their opposition to LRT despite this mode being twice as efficient as bus transit, according to the NTD they so opportunistically cite. If Osmek and Runbeck really love Arterial BRT, they better put their money where their mouths are and introduce amendments to fully fund it. Technical transit advocates (as defined in Alon Levy's dichotomy) need all the allies they can get, but they shouldn't be so desperate as to pretend these craven GOP schills are friends rather than foes.
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mattaudio
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mattaudio » January 18th, 2014, 2:47 pm

That op-ed is the reason why I do not believe we can count on BRT for transit (aBRT is different, as it should just be called "normal LOS for local bus routes). If we have anti-transit ideologues pushing for BRT rather than rail transit, they're going to be anti-transit ideologues when the choice is BRT or wimpy BRT. It's a shame because, technically, BRT could be a cost-effective option in certain places. But this is the 2010s version of GOPers pushing to "study PRT!!!" Just say no.


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