Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
EOst
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby EOst » May 27th, 2015, 10:01 am

mattaudio wrote:Given the continued growth of Old St. Anthony into a residential neighborhood with future density possibly greater than Uptown and the North Loop, is anyone else concerned that a little starter streetcar with shared right of way and, likely, relatively low headways will be lacking in capacity from day one?
Well, the headway they've used for the studies is 7.5 minutes. Maybe that'll get cut, who knows. But let's assume it here.

A streetcar has a capacity of 92, give or take (depending on how many are willing to stand). Assuming that none of the people who got on at any of the three-ish stops on the St. Anthony side are headed for other destinations there, that works out to a notional capacity of 736 people per hour headed downtown.

To fill that, you'd need around 30 people waiting at every stop for every single trip. I'm hopeful for high ridership too, but I think that might be a little optimistic.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Minneapolis Streetcar System

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 27th, 2015, 11:17 am

Just to clarify, 7.5 minute headways at peak, 10 minutes midday. To be sure, this is actually better than our LRT lines, and from Central/1st Ave total bus/streetcar trips per hour into downtown would go from 13/6 (peak/midday) to 22/14. That's a substantial capacity increase, and you'd be seeing transit come by every <3 minutes during peak hours. Not bad. The starter streetcar operating weakness is terminating the 18 at Nicollet & Lake.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Viktor Vaughn » May 27th, 2015, 11:56 am

The Transport Politic recently made the case against mixed traffic streetcars.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2015 ... -movement/

I've said many times on this site that putting down rail without it's own right-of-way is an unproductive mismatch of spending between financial capital and political capital. I'm not trying to reignite a tired streetcar debate, just share Yonah Freemark's compelling take on the issue.

EOst
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby EOst » May 27th, 2015, 12:08 pm

Those arguments, which mostly boil down to "only dedicated lanes lead to reliability!", would be a lot more compelling when discussing Nicollet-Central if the 18 didn't have a 90+% on-time record.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 27th, 2015, 12:22 pm

Well, if 1 out of 10 buses is more than five minutes late that's not so great. The 10 bus (relevant for Central) only has an 82% OTP. And, that's after the scheduled run time sandbagging for rush hours (when things get the worst). I'm not saying the world is on fire or that dedicated lanes are the only way to chop that rate down, but let's be honest about that 90% number.

EOst
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby EOst » May 27th, 2015, 12:49 pm

Sure, I don't think anyone would dispute that service could always be better. But if your main argument against streetcars is reliability concerns, this really doesn't look like a corridor where that will be a major issue.

Chava
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Chava » May 27th, 2015, 1:15 pm

Why do we consider dedicated bus lanes when they can maneuver around obstructions, but not for streetcars/trolleys? Not trying to troll, just curious as to why they're beneficial to the one mode, but possibly not the other.

mattaudio
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby mattaudio » May 27th, 2015, 1:32 pm

Though this corridor could easily have dedicated ROW with a center-running gauntlet track alignment.

EOst
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby EOst » May 27th, 2015, 1:37 pm

It could, but as someone with motion sickness, I was looking forward to less swerving. ;)

mattaudio
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby mattaudio » May 27th, 2015, 1:41 pm

Why would it have to swerve?

EOst
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby EOst » May 27th, 2015, 1:50 pm

Maybe I'm a bit fuzzy on the gauntlet concept you had in mind--I always envisioned it as a single track in in the median of Nicollet, with double tracks for passing at intersections. The move from the single to double would be a lateral movement.

mattaudio
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby mattaudio » May 27th, 2015, 2:16 pm

That would be ideal operationally, even though it involves a lateral movement. Since it's rail in dedicated ROW, it could be a very gradual turnout with constant acceleration/deceleration. I don't think it would be nearly as bad as your average bus stop, where lots of the lurching in/out and speeding/braking fast is to get the bus in and out the travel lane on a busy street.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby FISHMANPET » May 27th, 2015, 2:24 pm

I don't know, the turn the Green Line makes to head onto its own tracks out of downtown is pretty jerky and lurchy.

EOst
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby EOst » May 27th, 2015, 3:36 pm

Yeah, if it were as bad as the Green-Blue junction every block, I'd pretty much have to not ride it.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 27th, 2015, 7:47 pm

I would assume a gauntlet track curve would be smoother than a junction like the Blue-Green line one. The curve just west of the 10th St station in downtown St Paul is pretty smooth.

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Munch'n
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Munch'n » May 27th, 2015, 8:59 pm

nBode wrote:Interesting/very creative idea, but I don't think taking over this pedestrian route with transit would be a good call. Looking at this view, though, I do really wish the pedestrian connection across Washington was stronger and prioritized. I think if the portion of the Mall between 3rd and Washington were closed to traffic, then it could be a true pedestrian corridor and really emphasize the route to the river across Washington (if that makes sense).

It's a fine Idea, pedestrians just have to be smart.

Example Neuss Germany...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuss#/med ... .Neuss.jpg
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exiled_antipodean
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby exiled_antipodean » May 28th, 2015, 10:43 am

As say whenever I get the opportunity "if Australians are smart enough to do it", I'm pretty sure Americans can.

http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-content/u ... _jul07.jpg

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Anondson
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Anondson » May 28th, 2015, 11:12 am

MASS HYSTERIA!

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby FISHMANPET » May 28th, 2015, 11:22 am

I have to wonder what kind of legal constructs allow streetcars to interact with people like that. Is it a difference between common law and civil law? Though Australia is common law.

I was also thinking yesterday on the train how cool it would be to have transit corridors around the city that were only bike/walk/transit, no cars allowed.

grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby grant1simons2 » December 30th, 2015, 3:30 pm

Looks like it's going to be delayed another year

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 171341.pdf


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