Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
LakeCharles
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby LakeCharles » November 4th, 2016, 2:52 pm

MNdible wrote:I'd argue that the aBRT represents a baseline level of service that Metro Transit should be rolling out on these high demand routes, and I don't think the city should set a precedent of funding baseline transit service.
I agree with MNdible here. Seems like a dangerous precedent to set, that if Minneapolis wants anything more than a simple bus with 10 minute headways they have to pay for it themselves.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby RailBaronYarr » November 4th, 2016, 3:35 pm

MNdible wrote:I'd argue that the aBRT represents a baseline level of service that Metro Transit should be rolling out on these high demand routes, and I don't think the city should set a precedent of funding baseline transit service. You can make an argument that the streetcar is an upgrade over baseline service, a nice extra thing, and therefore if the city wants it, and nobody else gets it, then it makes sense for the city to pony up for it.
Well, you could make the argument that the city funds all sorts of other "baseline" transportation investments. Local streets, the city's share of arterial streets, regular maintenance, managing street lights, building sidewalks, etc. And that it should spend more on basics (ped scale lighting, faster roll-out of ADA ramps, etc). What percent of bus trips take place entirely within Minneapolis? Express buses? Light rail? I would argue the complete other way: the city should be on the hook for (at least a portion of) the cost for local bus service, shelters, and the like, with the more expensive things (which should ideally also be more regional in nature) having less of our involvement from a funding perspective.

But yeah, I get the idea that the city should pony up for the shiny things it wants that are within its borders that a larger agency (County, Met Council, State, etc) doesn't have in its long-range plans or defined priorities.
MNdible wrote:The Midtown line is certainly attractive, but it's kind of a different animal, isn't it? Because it's potentially interlining with LRT; because it's going to require expensive vertical circulation at almost every single station; because (let's be honest) it doesn't hit downtown and therefore loses a lot of powerful supporters.
The city has paid for (at least part of) expensive things with vertical circulation before (ex. skyways, parkign ramps, etc). But beyond that, I think it's actually a major failure of transit that powerful supporters drive investment rather than what's in the public's best interest. Despite the 21/53 not sniffing downtown, it's one of the busiest lines in the region and that corridor deserves our attention, too.

MSPtoMKE
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby MSPtoMKE » November 4th, 2016, 6:53 pm

I do think its worth pointing out that the conceptual transit operating plans I've seen for the 18 don't force everyone to transfer at Lake St. The plan calls for a limited stop bus from downtown to Nicollet and 66th running every 20 minutes, a local bus running from 108th to Lake St. every 20 minutes, and a shuttle route serving Grand Ave between 46th and Lake St. every 30 mins. There is certainly additional transferring required, but not for everyone. These plans are likely conceptual.

Scroll down towards the end of this report, specifically the "Modern Streetcar – Preliminary Starter Line Concept Operating Plan"
http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 112388.pdf
My flickr photos.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby RailBaronYarr » November 4th, 2016, 7:24 pm

Sure, but the limited stop calls for 1 mile stop spacing within the streetcar corridor, and half mile stop spacing outside it. I'm one of the biggest drum beaters for quarter mile stop spacing, but half mile certainly leave a lot of people outside a line's walk shed. Anyone taking the 18 as a result would need to transfer.

As xandrex said, this is as much a failure of the ops planning as it is the streetcar's fault. But.... that's what you get when you only build a 3 mile line and try to keep corridor operating costs comparable to the other option.

Biggydrink
Block E
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Biggydrink » June 21st, 2017, 11:06 am

Minnapolis is buying the land underneath that KMart, using money from the Streetcar Value Capture Fund. KMart still has a lease valid until 2053 though.

http://www.startribune.com/minneapolis- ... 429755363/

Not sure if this shows they are serious about building out the extended line someday, or if it was just an easy place to find money to buy something they wanted anyway.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 21st, 2017, 1:15 pm

Buried in this document:
The City is currently completing an Environmental Analysis (EA) study for the Nicollet-Central
Modern Streetcar. This phase of the study includes a series of technical tasks in advance of
publishing the EA in the fall of 2017 for public review and comment. All of the technical analysis
and community outreach is anticipated to be completed by the spring of 2018.

MNdible
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby MNdible » June 21st, 2017, 1:59 pm

This was perhaps already known, but was news to me: the city is tapping the Nicollet-Central Streetcar taxing district funds to purchase the Kmart site.

eazydp
Metrodome
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby eazydp » June 24th, 2017, 7:04 am

After this disastrously long Nicollet re-do, it's going to take a long time for the DT businesses to get motivated to lose their street for another few years for a street car. I hope this happens in my lifetime though!

amiller92
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby amiller92 » June 26th, 2017, 8:50 am

People realize that you can't pour concrete in the winter, right?

grrdanko
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby grrdanko » June 26th, 2017, 7:44 pm

eazydp wrote:
June 24th, 2017, 7:04 am
After this disastrously long Nicollet re-do, it's going to take a long time for the DT businesses to get motivated to lose their street for another few years for a street car. I hope this happens in my lifetime though!
The mall is being built ready for this streetcar line. Construction on Nicollet Mall would consist of installing tracks and catenary wire. The tracks can be installed by cutting narrow channels in the concrete and placing the rails. It wouldn't be like the mall reconstruction.

mamundsen
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby mamundsen » June 26th, 2017, 9:40 pm

Would they really be able to drop it in that easily? I've always thought that they'd have to straighten the wandering blocks for the streetcar.

EOst
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby EOst » June 26th, 2017, 11:19 pm

grrdanko's explanation is what I'd been told as well. That's part of the reason so much utility relocation work had to happen now.

Silophant
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby Silophant » June 27th, 2017, 7:56 am

I think streetcars would be able to negotiate the curves just fine, the curves aren't much tighter than the occasional lane changes that the LRT does. It kinda detracts from the smooth ride that's one of the main advantages of a rail vehicle over a bus, and, as we're seeing right now, curvrd sections of track wear out and need replacement sooner than straight sections, but it appears to be doable (though dumb).

mattaudio
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby mattaudio » June 27th, 2017, 8:39 am

Grumble grumble $5 million per block should be getting us a transit tunnel underneath Nicollet grumble grumble.

SurlyLHT
Target Field
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby SurlyLHT » June 27th, 2017, 9:00 am

Theoretically, you could minimize the curves in the tracks by going through the middle of the street and ignoring the traffic lanes. But, I don't see how that would work with buses. Although, I doubt the streetcars would reach a speed high enough on the Mall to make the curves an issue.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby FISHMANPET » June 27th, 2017, 9:47 am

Curved rails for the hell of it would be a nightmare. Wheels would screech against the rails constantly, irritating riders and other people on the mall, and maintenance would be a nightmare (on the tracks and the streetcar vehicles themselves).

David Greene
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby David Greene » June 27th, 2017, 9:48 am

But if buses are routed off the Mall...

In the past I've been opposed to that but after some thought and experience, I think it could work. Make Marq2 completely bus-only multi-lane one-way pairs with gates/stations on both sides of the streets. They're not that useful for cars anyway due to food trucks and other parking, even during rush hour when there is not supposed to be parking on them. That restriction is apparently unenforced.

I realize that some access is needed for parking ramps, but if we can limit it to half-block segments it would help I think.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby SurlyLHT » December 8th, 2017, 8:23 am

In an interview with our future mayor:

" Q Is the Nicollet/Central streetcar project dead? Are we still raising money for it?
I think it is dead. But yes, we are still capturing value on projects to fund a streetcar. Four years ago when I ran for council I was for it, for the economic development benefits it brings; $200 million of public investment can bring $1.4 billion in net gain. But [lower northeast/Old St. Anthony] is booming right now without it.

I think a streetcar down Washington, through the North Loop and up to Broadway, has the potential for economic development."

http://tcbmag.com/news/articles/2018/ja ... e-cops-and

EOst
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby EOst » December 8th, 2017, 9:36 am

Which is crazy, because a Broadway/Washington streetcar makes zero sense without the shared infrastructure of the Nicollet-Central line.

David Greene
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Re: Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Postby David Greene » December 8th, 2017, 10:21 am

EOst wrote:
December 8th, 2017, 9:36 am
Which is crazy, because a Broadway/Washington streetcar makes zero sense without the shared infrastructure of the Nicollet-Central line.
Why? 5th St. is not very far away.


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