Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

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mattaudio
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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby mattaudio » January 13th, 2016, 9:39 am

I share Trig's concern. The mall is really a dystopian or even hostile place for a significant slice of society, as seen by the BLM protest and response (and I'll leave the deep dive on that for the BLM thread). I have concerns about us supplanting genuine public spaces for public functions (such as a crosswalk for crossing the street, or a transit station for transferring between services) and replacing them with spaces that don't confer the same rights and access for public users. While this happens in a variety of places across our region, by far the most prominent and oppressive example is the MOA. And within the MOA, the most significant example of public function on private property is the transit station.

One solution would be an agreement between MOA and MetroTransit et al that the transit station, and walk-up access thereto, constitute de facto public space with all the rights and accesses conferred upon the public in such a space.

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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby Silophant » January 13th, 2016, 9:51 am

No idea how they would, but I wonder if MT has data on how many people disembarking at MOA are going into the mall vs. just hopping on another bus/train?

trigonalmayhem

Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby trigonalmayhem » January 13th, 2016, 9:59 am

No idea, but there's a good chance that a sizable portion of the (admittedly sad) red line ridership is there to transfer. Also don't forget that there's a hotel and business park across the street to the south that the transit center serves (I worked there for a couple years). So even if it's only five or ten percent of riders who aren't headed into the mall, it's still unacceptable to force their transfer to take place in a semi private space where they can be harassed and ejected by mall security.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby HiawathaGuy » January 13th, 2016, 11:17 am

I've been using the MOA transit station for 12 years, with a ton of regularity, for my commute to/from work. I can say that I have never, ever, ever, once felt like the transit station was "controlled" by MOA. The only security I see in the space are Metro Transit Police, or Bloomington Police in conjunction with MT Police. Metro Transit workers are the ONLY ones who clean the platform areas (trash, sweeping, and sidewalk spraying/scrubbing). So I'm still questioning how MOA is somehow dictating what happens in this space. MT owns it and maintains it, like any other store in the mall, I would imagine. The fact that MT has to work with the mall on operational aspects, people movement, etc. is to be expected.

I wonder how things work in NYC or DC or elsewhere in the world, when the biggest transit center in their areas are in a private building. Who gets to tell who what? I'm just curious. MOA is our biggest transfer point and has a ton of unique situations that come into play.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby trigonalmayhem » January 13th, 2016, 3:20 pm

Tell it to the teenage girl who was assaulted by MOA security while trying to get change to catch the bus home there. They followed her out because of curfew and then piled on her in the middle of the transit center when she didn't leave quickly enough. The mall cops shouldn't even be allowed in the transit center while on duty if it's truly a public space. I'm glad your privileged existence has allowed you to escape that kind of treatment but it is absolutely not treated like a public space by the mall management and security.

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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby HiawathaGuy » January 13th, 2016, 4:42 pm

trigonalmayhem wrote:Tell it to the teenage girl who was assaulted by MOA security while trying to get change to catch the bus home there. They followed her out because of curfew and then piled on her in the middle of the transit center when she didn't leave quickly enough. The mall cops shouldn't even be allowed in the transit center while on duty if it's truly a public space. I'm glad your privileged existence has allowed you to escape that kind of treatment but it is absolutely not treated like a public space by the mall management and security.
I'm thankful I don't live in your very cynical world man.
Listen, bad things happen every day, everywhere. I'm not discounting your one example - and if it's entirely true, then that is horrible. But without the full story, I can't take this one example as proof that we should move the transit station. As that would literally cost hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't think that's worth it.

What I do know is that I spend time at this transit station very regularly and have never once witnessed anyone being harassed by mall security. I have witnessed mall security removing a shoplifter from the platform though.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby trigonalmayhem » January 13th, 2016, 5:01 pm

I'd be much more inclined to have the mall admit that portions of its property, including but not limited to the transit center, are public spaces and that they cannot exert the same control as if they were private. However given recent events, including the one I mentioned which you can look up easily (there's even a video), all signs point the mall going the opposite direction. If they insist on that course of action I absolutely cannot support spending any more money on that transit center. If someone could force the issue via lawsuit and make the mall cease treating the transit center like a private space they control I'd also be fine with continued investment, but we're not there yet and I don't see metro transit looking to clarify the issue before pouring money into it (and they really really should have some kind of agreement somewhere delineating the control and rights of the space if they don't already). They are going to pour 'literally millions of dollars' into this and I'd prefer they not do so until transit riders can be guaranteed some basic legal rights when utilizing the transit center.

So I'm sorry that my 'cynical world' is the one we live in, because I wish it weren't so too.

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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby HiawathaGuy » January 14th, 2016, 8:53 am

Again, even if I agreed with your point of view, which I can understand, it's not reality. Period.
Metro Transit needs the MOA Transfer station. It currently works inefficiently. So whether you think it's the best way to spend transit dollars, they have an obligation to look at ways to reduce operating costs and improve rider experience. This remodel of the MOA Transit Station does exactly that. The benefits far outweigh the supposed overreach of MOA security in the transit station. I think you oversimplify things to make them easy talking points without fully realizing the truly complex beast that is MOA. The security needs alone blow my mind. Yet you're expecting MOA owners to not maintain their property as they see needed/fit, simply because they have a publicly funded transit station in a small section of their property?

I agree there should be some agreement. And I would venture to believe there is, and I'd venture to believe that if MOA security feels they have a need to follow someone from the mall into the transit station, Metro Transit is okay with that. As public safety is paramount, especially at MOA.

Are there bad cops and security personnel, of course! But there are far more bad people.

mattaudio
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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby mattaudio » January 14th, 2016, 8:55 am

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Tiller
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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby Tiller » January 14th, 2016, 9:30 am

Quick opinion: The station should be upgraded, and the public/private matter should be pushed in the courts like in California.

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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby DanPatchToget » April 16th, 2016, 9:26 pm

What I find ridiculous is that it takes 4 minutes just to get between the MOA Station and 28th Avenue Station. They should've gone with the original plan of having the station along 28th Avenue across the street from the East Parking Ramp. Right now the area is just an overflow lot and used for State Fair express buses. Would it be feasible to have this alignment and perhaps "merge" the 28th Avenue Station with the new MOA station, as in people parking at the 28th Avenue parking ramp would walk to the nearby MOA station to catch the train or bus? Since there is plenty of land they could easily move bus operations over there as well. The only problem I see is how people get from the station to the MOA, but it would also be easier to extend west, so there could be another station on the north side of MOA.

For now I'll just walk/bike south from the MOA station to the bus stop on Old Shakopee to wait for the 539. Too many smokers, and combined with diesel fumes and a dark dreary place make it miserable.

SamHartmen

Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby SamHartmen » April 16th, 2016, 11:15 pm

Would it speed up service any if the tracks were straightened out a bit in the mid block? Not suggesting they rip up the existing street just mid block so the turn isn't as sharp. Would that allow for a bit faster service, enough to have much of an impact?

What other realistic option could be done to reduce that time, with the existing plan?

mulad
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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby mulad » April 17th, 2016, 7:39 am

Probably some, but not a whole lot. My biggest complaint along that stretch has always been the very sharp 5-mph turn to get under the MOA parking structure between the supporting columns.

Angling the line diagonally through that block could be better from a land-use perspective, though -- there's only about half an acre of developable space on the south/east side of the tracks by the corner of Old Shakopee Road and 28th Ave. The whole block is 32 acres or so, which could subdivide into about six Minneapolis-sized blocks (~5 acres each if measuring from street centerlines). Then again, the simplest block setup would probably add three grade crossings, which is a bit undesirable.

The developable area northwest of the tracks is about 27 acres, which again could be divided into 5-6 blocks pretty easily, and without needing funky parcels with 45°-angle edges. Kind of a wash, I guess.

mattaudio
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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby mattaudio » April 18th, 2016, 8:42 am

If we ever wanted a TRUE buildout of the ideal MOA transit center location, it would have realigned the LRT westward from 28th Ave Station to the south side of Lindau Lane underneath the new connector to the Phase II superblock. This would have placed LRT directly between the two mall superblocks, and would have allowed the trackage to continue westward to Old Cedar Ave ("threading the needle" next to the SB77 to Lindau ramp underneath the Lindau to SB 77 flyover) with only minor grade modifications to the bermed EB494 to SB77 ramp but then allowing for through-routing of rail service westward along American Blvd or southward along Old Cedar Ave.

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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby HiawathaGuy » April 18th, 2016, 10:10 am

This is all pure fantasy. A) The LRT tracks are staying where they are for the long haul. B) MOA now owns the 32 acres. C) The entire area is available for development, it's important not to give misinformation about this area. It has limited options, but none that call for zero development.

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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby HiawathaGuy » July 6th, 2016, 4:03 pm

MOA transit project proceeds despite funding gap
http://finance-commerce.com/2016/07/moa ... nding-gap/
*UNLOCKED*

I was wondering if they'd keep this moving forward, despite the lack of final funding from the State of MN via bonding - due to an inactive Legislature. Either they feel confident the money will come through via Special Session, or they believe there will be a changing of the guards in November. Regardless, I'm glad to see this moving ahead!

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 1st, 2016, 1:55 pm

https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... pdate.aspx

I hadn't seen these updates for MOA's transit station. They've made some updates from the last one posted - including a possible future 2nd LRT platform. Glad to see the updates include this element.

Found more detail here too:
https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... ation.aspx

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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby nBode » November 1st, 2016, 2:45 pm

I dunno, it just seems shortsighted to be investing more money in a dead-end station. Like, they'd have to demo a ton of stuff to even think about extending this line, right? Why?..

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 1st, 2016, 2:52 pm

nBode wrote:I dunno, it just seems shortsighted to be investing more money in a dead-end station. Like, they'd have to demo a ton of stuff to even think about extending this line, right? Why?..
There are ZERO plans on the books for any extension over the next 25+ years. So with that in mind, this is a smart reflow of the space to make it more attractive to users and cut operational costs for all the buses.

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Re: Mall of America Transit Station: Master Plan

Postby nBode » November 2nd, 2016, 10:17 am

^ I suppose that's fair.


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