Street, Road and Highway Projects

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
RailBaronYarr
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby RailBaronYarr » November 17th, 2016, 2:08 pm

I mean, I'm all for smashing the stupid urbanist assumption that we need to line our curbs with parked cars to make pedestrians feel safer instead of using trees and benches and a raised cycle track as a 6+ foot buffer and 20mph design speed on the street itself. Especially since (contrary to parking enthusiasts' claims) most of the time the on-street parking in a place like this is mostly empty and therefore drivers go faster anyway and could just as easily jump the curb to the ped realm. And I agree there is plenty of off-street parking for both residential and commercial, and side-streets offer even more on-street parking opportunities with a <1 minute walk to the many great destinations at places like 34th/50th. I'd also rather not have buses get stuck behind parking cars, just sayin'.

But, holy shit I don't even live down this way and I would really rather not get into a parking war to net either a very-sub-standard raised bike+ped (at best we're talking 26' curb to curb, leaving 16' on each side, not great if trying to fit trees and sidewalk and cycle track) OR a slightly wider ped realm. While it might be awesome to fit in sidewalk cafe stuff and bigger bus shelters and a wider boulevard space, and as a PAC member I'd totally go to bat for this, I don't know that it's a compromise even the most progressive TPW staff will be willing to make.

twincitizen
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby twincitizen » November 17th, 2016, 2:54 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:Point of clarification.. the CIP map shows it going as far north as Minnehaha Parkway and down to 62, the fb event says 50th to 58th, and the CLIC planning document says Minnehaha Pkwy to 54th St. Interesting, not sure which is most accurate. But they do list it as reconstruction.
In this part of town, 62 actually swings up to 58th Street (unlike 62nd Street elsewhere in Mpls), so 58th = 62. I too had previously read/heard that this project went up to the Parkway, but yeah that Facebook event says 50th is the northern end. I'll seek clarification at the meeting. It would be pretty dumb to stop right at 50th, as the business district continues up another half block. And the concrete road surface between 50th and the Parkway is in just as bad or worse shape as anywhere else: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9157083 ... 312!8i6656

54th up to the Parkway is definitely the worst part, so it makes sense why the CLIC identified that. 58th (62) to 54th is not nearly as bad, though it's still super annoying concrete with a million cuts and patches.

twincitizen
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby twincitizen » January 3rd, 2017, 9:52 am

grant1simons2 wrote:RFP out for Engineering and Design services for 8th St S from Hennepin to Chicago :o

http://minneapolismn.gov/meetings/legis ... S1P-151899
They've got a website up: http://www.8thstreetproject.com/

And more meetings coming up on Jan 12.
Join us at an open house on January 12 to review preliminary roadway and streetscape concepts and share ideas. The project team will hold two open houses at the Crystal Court in the IDS Center (80 South 8th Street). Meeting times will be from 11:00 – 1:00 pm and from 4:00 – 6:00 pm.
The good news is that three aBRT stations will be built as part of this project, and there appears to be a strong emphasis on pedestrian safety/improvements (bumpouts, crosswalks, etc.) The bad news is they're referring to the outside lane as "mixed traffic", rather than buses and right turns only. If there's anything we can do to push on that, I'm all for it. This would be a great project to implement a bus-only lane, including tinting the pavement red.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 3rd, 2017, 10:19 am

Now that we have a modal hierarchy as part of our Complete Streets Policy, it would be nice to revisit that downtown east-west transit spine report that only calculated the impact of a transit lane on motorist delay, rather than the other way around. I can't remember the conditions or delays or mode splits on 8th, but in this piece I showed that, conservatively, over 1/3 of the street users on 7th are in buses. Considering the boost in ridership (and buses/hour?) given planned aBRT lines on 8th St, yeah I think pushing for a dedicated transit lane is a must here.

EOst
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby EOst » January 3rd, 2017, 12:55 pm

twincitizen wrote:This would be a great project to implement a bus-only lane, including tinting the pavement red.
It would be great to have a transit-only lane through here, but red-tinted transit lanes require FHWA approval, right? Hard to know if the Trump administration will keep approving those.

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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby EOst » January 14th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Ramsey County is doing a "transportation safety study" on known a 4-lane Death Road, Rice Street, from Larpenteur to University:
Rice Street is being studied from University to Larpenteur avenues during 2017. The transportation safety study will consider pedestrians, bikes, transit, vehicles and parking and will guide future investments in sidewalks, bikeways, transit and the roadway.

The purpose of the Rice Street transportation safety study is:

- to identify future investments
- to design a corridor that will enhance the safety for all modes of transportation
- to promote economic growth and community investment
It's hard to know what the outcome is going to be here. There's no room to achieve any of the multi-modal safety/economic development goals in the 66' ROW without a road diet. At the same time, Rice has an AADT right around 15k, and Ramsey has historically been resistant to lane removal with that many cars. I'm told that a road diet was attempted on Rice some time previously which "failed," but I don't know the details of that.

Politically the lines seem pretty clear. On the county level the whole street falls in Janice Rettman's district, and when I asked her about the study her response didn't inspire a lot of confidence (lots of concern about cut-through traffic, despite the fact that none of the side streets cross either of the BNSF rail lines). At the city level, both Thao and Brendmoen are pushing for lane reductions. Brendmoen has said that she is pushing for two lanes south of Geranium (similar? to Payne Ave from Phalen -> Maryland), though I don't know how much of a chance that has.

seanrichardryan
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby seanrichardryan » January 14th, 2017, 6:22 pm

If the AADT is only 15k a lane reduction could easily be achieved with little argument. The county has done lane reductions on 18-20k roads. Looks like most of the length of Rice is consistent, with a max of 15,700 AADT
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EOst
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby EOst » January 14th, 2017, 6:31 pm

That's good to hear. Do you have any recent examples of 4-3 diets done on comparable roads? That could help a lot getting support from the D6 council.

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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby seanrichardryan » January 14th, 2017, 8:16 pm

Marshall Avenue was reduced about 10 years ago, with 11' travel lanes, 5' bike lanes and 8' parking lanes in 56' ft. It works quite well.
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EOst
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby EOst » January 15th, 2017, 11:31 am

Marshall's a great example with an even higher AADT, but it's complicated a little by the second WB travel lane west of Cretin. (And I can just hear people immediately complaining that Marshall is pretty congested at rush hour.)

seanrichardryan
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby seanrichardryan » January 15th, 2017, 3:47 pm

It does get congested in the evenings between Prior and Cretin. But everyday the sun continues to rise. I'm working to drop that extra WB lane past Cretin. It's totally unnecessary and would make a great protected bike facility and parking for the commercial businesses at the corner.
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twincitizen
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby twincitizen » January 30th, 2017, 3:14 pm

twincitizen wrote:Meeting coming up to discuss the 2018 reconstruction of 34th Avenue between 50th Street and 62: https://www.facebook.com/events/1499262 ... _tab=about

I assume this is a full reconstruction and not rehabilitation, but I'm not sure. The concrete roadway is in pretty rough shape.

Notably, 34th Avenue is not on the bike master plan (parallel routes are Nokomis/31st Ave and 43rd Ave; both are lower volume streets with sharrows & speed bumps). I could be persuaded either way whether or not a reconstructed street should have bike lanes. Intermittent blocks lack boulevards on one side, and the business district at 34th Av & 50th St has no boulevards and no trees whatsoever. 34th Ave carries the Route 7 through this entire stretch, and branches of the 22 and 515 down between 54th and 62. There's a lot of ridership down at 56th-58th St (Bossen Terrace low income housing). I could imagine a reconstructed street with parking on only one side (where possible) and much wider boulevards. Somewhat similar to Penn Ave S from 50th to 62. I'd weigh the potential for streetscape and pedestrian enhancements much more heavily than dedicated ROW to painted bike lanes.

One thing I'd like to see discussed is some changes in traffic control. Currently there are 4-way stop signs every other block, often at cross-streets with very little traffic. It's not ideal for drivers, bus riders, or bikes on 34th Ave. The stop signs keep it from becoming too much of a speedway, but are frustrating nonetheless. It's just not an appropriate traffic control at several of these intersections. My preference would be for a calmed street with fewer 4-way stops, with activated pedestrian crossing signals at some of those lesser intersections.
I went to the meeting last week. Pretty much reconstruction as-is, though with quite a few bumpouts. Slightly narrowed lanes (to 11 feet) will allow for slightly wider boulevards in areas where they are undersized or non-existent today. Oh, and they're replacing the concrete roadway with asphalt, which will result in a quieter, smoother ride over the current conditions. No intersection control changes were contemplated, though I did suggest that they study the 4-way stops at 56th and 52nd. I don't think any of the others are really up for debate, nor should they be. The assumption that Public Works makes is that the existing control is the right one, because that's the way it's always been and no one complains about it. Same goes for bus stop locations, spacing, etc. Public works just assumes the current paradigm is the correct one. It does make me wonder how some of these 4-way stops got there in the first place...it is a collector street after all.

Adding trees & green space at the 50th St business district will be the focus of future meetings once the basic layout is approved. Project is set to be approved early this year for planned 2018 reconstruction. Apparently only Pkwy-54th was initially planned, but NENA pushed to extend the project down to 58th as the pavement is really bad throughout. I'm glad they did, because a four-block reconstruction that left a four-block section unimproved would have been really dumb...

Website: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/cip/2016/WCMSP-190135

mattaudio
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby mattaudio » January 30th, 2017, 3:37 pm

The assumption should be that the status quo does not work.

Scottie
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Scottie » January 30th, 2017, 4:38 pm

I always figured the 52nd Street 4-way stop had to do with kids walking to the elementary school a few blocks west. Since they added the one at 51st when the library re-opened it probobly isn't very necessary anymore though.

MNdible
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby MNdible » January 30th, 2017, 5:09 pm

Not terribly familiar with this area, but can anybody explain to me the justification for the mid-block crosswalk at the Post Office? Because that just looks absurd.

nBode
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby nBode » January 31st, 2017, 10:29 am

^yeah, like who lives in that house across the street and why do they go to the post office so often?

twincitizen
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby twincitizen » January 31st, 2017, 3:17 pm

I think they were just responding to a neighborhood request for a mid-block crosswalk. It was met with loud disapproval at the meeting, and the city engineers said it was "just a concept". I don't think it's what anyone had in mind. Curbside access to the dropboxes and adjacent parking for post office access is clearly preferred over a useless midblock crosswalk that eliminates all parking from the block on both sides of the street. Bizarre that anyone even thought that was necessary...it's not that far from the corner. Even calling it "mid-block" is inaccurate as it's actually like 2 lots in from the corner. Just weird.
Scottie wrote:
January 30th, 2017, 4:38 pm
I always figured the 52nd Street 4-way stop had to do with kids walking to the elementary school a few blocks west. Since they added the one at 51st when the library re-opened it probobly isn't very necessary anymore though.
Interesting...so the city at some point in recent history added another 4-way stop to this collector street? Wild.
That said, I actually think the stop at 51st is ok, due to the busy/chaotic curb cuts very close to it (grocery store parking lot NE corner; SuperAmerica SE corner). The presence of the library alone would not seem to justify a 4-way stop on a street with so little cross-traffic. 52nd is related to Keewaydin Elementary a few blocks west. Part of the Safe Routes to School or something.

28th Ave and 34th Ave are just jokes of collector streets with all these damn 4-way stops. I can't think of a similar street elsewhere in the city that carries >6,000 AADT and stop signs every 1-2 blocks. Can you imagine Bloomington Ave or Chicago Ave having 4-way stops every 2 blocks? Not a chance.

I'm torn about the 51st/52nd situation. That clearly goes against spacing practices, but both have reasons for being there. 56th is a real good candidate for removal, but that would create a stretch from 58th to 54th with potential for high speeds. 54th could be a stoplight instead of a 4-way stop, as it's one of the few east-west streets that actually carries any amount of traffic.

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mister.shoes
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby mister.shoes » January 31st, 2017, 3:28 pm

twincitizen wrote:
January 31st, 2017, 3:17 pm
28th Ave and 34th Ave are just jokes of collector streets with all these damn 4-way stops. I can't think of a similar street elsewhere in the city that carries >6,000 AADT and stop signs every 1-2 blocks. Can you imagine Bloomington Ave or Chicago Ave having 4-way stops every 2 blocks? Not a chance.
No, I can't imagine it, but as someone who walks along Chicago between 46th and the Parkway on a regular basis, I wouldn't mind seeing people slow down a bit. Just on Sunday we were at the corner of 47th and Chicago with our toddler. We pushed the activation light for the pedestrian crossing and were flat-out ignored by a lady going at least 35mph northbound after turning onto the street half a block south of us. The southbound car patiently waiting even honked his horn at the other driver, but she was completely oblivious.
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mattaudio
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby mattaudio » January 31st, 2017, 3:41 pm

twincitizen wrote:
January 31st, 2017, 3:17 pm
Can you imagine Bloomington Ave or Chicago Ave having 4-way stops every 2 blocks?
Tis my dream.

EOst
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby EOst » January 31st, 2017, 3:53 pm

mister.shoes wrote:
January 31st, 2017, 3:28 pm
ust on Sunday we were at the corner of 47th and Chicago with our toddler. We pushed the activation light for the pedestrian crossing and were flat-out ignored by a lady going at least 35mph northbound after turning onto the street half a block south of us.
Fun fact: In the 2016 Streetview imagery for this intersection, you can see a really ugly early-80s Cadillac blowing through these lights with another waiting pedestrian.


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