Street, Road and Highway Projects

[mattaudio]

Argenta Trail realignment fight ends in Inver Grove Heights residents' favor
http://www.startribune.com/local/south/302256041.html

After worrying for six months that a 6-lane road would cut through their neighborhood, residents along Inver Grove Heights’ Argenta Trail can finally rest easy.

The Dakota County Board approved a relatively low-impact realignment design. Now, the city can move forward with development plans and residents can settle into their homes for the foreseeable future.

[stopit]

Does anyone have info on methods to stop lousy road projects?

I live on a country road in a Washington County suburb. It is the primary artery for semi, dump, and other commercial trucks because the only other road is blocked for trucks by a low railroad bridge. It is also primary access for a local heavy haul company. So these trucks are the primary user of this road and destroyed it over time.

The city has decided to replace the road and charge local residents based on total acres and not on road frontage. The railroad owns a lot of frontage and is not being charged at all. And the plan is to expand and enlarge the road to accommodate all the commercial traffic.

So the local residents are being forced to build a commercial truck route basically. Feels like corporate welfare to me since the local company and other truckers will benefit while the local residents 'pay the freight'. I could get to my driveway before the asphalt was removed, I can get to it now on the gravel, and I will be able to get home after the road is built. So the thousands of dollars I will be assessed will buy me nothing. I'd get more if I wasted the money at the casino or burned it in the fireplace.

Anybody know who I can contact to stop this?

[Nick]

Sounds like a great streets.mn post to me but I'm biased

[Anondson]

Yeah, with maps showing routes and locations of particular properties. I'm voyeuristically interested in this.

I'm not sure of any road project that has been stopped, if a road is crumbling it needs replacement. I do know that some road reconstruction projects were successfully "downgraded" in what engineers offered to do. That is, the Sunnyslope neighborhood of Edina, across the Minnehaha creek from Country Club, got the city to rebuild their streets without curbs, keeping a more rural aesthetic, it brought the expense down.

If you live on a country road, I'm not kidding in the least when I suggest maybe you demand the road be rebuilt as a very country road. Go gravel. It's probably what you can afford as property owners. If the county wants the road to be utilized regionally, they should chip in with county funds to bring it up to paved status.

[froggie]

Depends on the volume. Even for strictly-local roads, there's a traffic volume threshold where it's still more cost effective to pave than to keep it gravel.

[twincitizen]

I have to head west (to Osakis MN via 94 west) in the PM rush, coming from Richfield. What is the best possible way to avoid gridlock, given the ongoing construction mess on both 494 (Plymouth) and 100 (SLP)? How is 169 NB between 62 and 694? Am I seriously better off taking 35W north, cutting through downtown on 11th St, and getting on 94 north there (to avoid congested 35>94w flyover & Lowry tunnel)?

It's asinine but it might actually be quicker than west metro highways...I'm guessing a lot of normal 494 & 100 users are currently using 169. I will be in the HOV lane on 35W north, which helps tremendously.

[HiawathaGuy]

I have to head west (to Osakis MN via 94 west) in the PM rush, coming from Richfield. What is the best possible way to avoid gridlock, given the ongoing construction mess on both 494 (Plymouth) and 100 (SLP)? How is 169 NB between 62 and 694? Am I seriously better off taking 35W north, cutting through downtown on 11th St, and getting on 94 north there (to avoid congested 35>94w flyover & Lowry tunnel)?

It's asinine but it might actually be quicker than west metro highways...I'm guessing a lot of normal 494 & 100 users are currently using 169. I will be in the HOV lane on 35W north, which helps tremendously.

If 169 doesn't seem like it's moving... maybe take 494 to Hwy 12 west, to 101 north to 94? Or 55 west to Buffalo, then 25 north to 94?

[mister.shoes]

Am I seriously better off taking 35W north, cutting through downtown on 11th St, and getting on 94 north there (to avoid congested 35>94w flyover & Lowry tunnel)?

This is how we head out of town from S MPLS. I like to think it's faster, but I also like driving through DT. Sometimes I'll take 5th to 3rd and get on 94 there. Sometimes I use 9th, 11th, whatever I'm feeling like. Never 7th, though. That one's a mess.

[froggie]

How is 169 NB between 62 and 694?

Was usually bad through Plymouth even before 494's construction. Can't imagine it's any better.

Am I seriously better off taking 35W north, cutting through downtown on 11th St, and getting on 94 north there (to avoid congested 35>94w flyover & Lowry tunnel)?

Didn't know you could get on 94 north from 11th...or are you snaking through Royalston or by the Farmer's Market?

[mister.shoes]

Am I seriously better off taking 35W north, cutting through downtown on 11th St, and getting on 94 north there (to avoid congested 35>94w flyover & Lowry tunnel)?

Didn't know you could get on 94 north from 11th...or are you snaking through Royalston or by the Farmer's Market?

I've done the Royalston route, but the lights at Olson and 7th kill any accrued time savings. 11th -> Glenwood -> 2nd -> viaducts works well enough, but if you're going to take the viaducts why not just take 5th Ave all the way to 3rd Street?

The craziest route I've tried was Grant -> Portland -> 15th (around the convention center) -> Vineland -> Lyndale. Works shockingly well, honestly. It's just not as "fun" as going through the core.

[David Greene]

The city has decided to replace the road and charge local residents based on total acres and not on road frontage. The railroad owns a lot of frontage and is not being charged at all. And the plan is to expand and enlarge the road to accommodate all the commercial traffic.

Of these complaints, only the lack of charge to commercial users seems a real problem. Charging for acreage isn't any more arbitrary than charging for frontage. Why should someone with a huge lot but low frontage pay less than someone with a very small lot configured to be mostly along the road? It's the same amount of access for both and the person with the larger lot is more likely to be able to afford a higher charge.

You're basing your argument on the notion that, "I don't get anything out of this project." Certainly you do, but let's accept the premise that you don't. With that argument, the railroad shouldn't pay anything. They're getting even less than you are.

I mean, you're in the suburbs, so you've got to expect to have higher road costs living along an arterial.

[go4guy]

Which is why the larger lot would have higher taxes. Lot size is a determining factor in your taxes. Only your road frontage should be considered for road assessments based on your lot's zoning. Obviously a commercial lot with the same frontage would have a higher assessment because they have higher traffic. But the same residential zoning should be based on road frontage.

[David Greene]

Only your road frontage should be considered for road assessments based on your lot's zoning.

Why? I see absolutely no reason to prefer that scheme over any other. Again, it's the same amount of access either way.

[mattaudio]

While I'd rather see us assess in a way that reflects increase in value to the adjacent private property...
Access is more complicated than frontage *or* total acreage. Remember, in Ecolab v. Eagan the new road which triggered the assessment was along the entire backside of the Ecolab campus, probably a quarter mile or more. But Ecolab neither wanted the road nor immediately benefited from it (since their existing vehicular access was on the other side of the campus). Hence the greatly reduced settlement. In that case, I could see Ecolab negotiating a future access charge (deferred assessment, if you will) if they decide to develop the other side of their campus in a way that necessitates access via the aforementioned roadway.

[go4guy]

Only your road frontage should be considered for road assessments based on your lot's zoning.

Why? I see absolutely no reason to prefer that scheme over any other. Again, it's the same amount of access either way.

So maybe assess based on the number of dwelling units? A single family home with 100 ft road frontage on half acre has the same amount of access as a single family home with 100 ft road frontage and 20 acres of total land.

[RailBaronYarr]

So 100' of frontage with 100 dwelling units would then pay 100x a single family home with 100' of frontage. There's probably some combination of land use + frontage + acreage that should determine assessment or value capture in the general sense. But, more importantly, this shows how handling road pricing in rural environments is tough.

This road (probably?) has relatively few number of residences in relation to the commercial traffic. Not every road can (or should) be tolled, hence why we have county wheelage taxes and state gas taxes dedicated to counties to maintain roads. Certainly, Lyndale Ave in Minneapolis carries trucks and cars through neighborhoods with little direct value to adjacent property owners. A strict property-assessed model wouldn't be fair there the same way as stopit's situation. The difference is that the level of investment and local traffic is enough to justify charging property owners a decent amount come repair/rebuild (and ideally more space of the right of way would be given over to local traffic rather than through-traffic as a result).

[David Greene]

I was trying to think of some scheme based on curb cuts to eliminate more of them but I always come to some absurb scenario like putting the curb cut on a residential street part of the property instead the commercial side.

Factoring in number of dwellings/employees seems like an idea worth exploring as it gives some idea of the use of the road.

[Anondson]

Some grade separations are going to be studied, especially 252.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=you ... mG--T6568o

[froggie]

That would be part of the Principal Arterial Intersection Conversion Study that the Met Council and MnDOT are doing, and someone mentioned previously on the forum. They're basically taking all the non-freeway Principal Arterials in the metro, and are both prioritizing permanent improvements as well as coming up with smaller, low-cost improvements.

Of note, Dakota County is on record as opposing the study (page 25).

[go4guy]

Does anyone know if there is any plan to expand 169 thru the metro to 3 lanes each way? That highway is backed up every single day during the entire rush hour.