Street, Road and Highway Projects

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Mdcastle
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Mdcastle » June 7th, 2020, 9:27 am

Not surprising considering highways cost more money but move far more people than transit, bike, and ped projects. To say nothing about most transit being dependent on highways.

If I had to pick five it would be:

1) TH 5 expressway extension. Right now despite the turn lanes it's dangerous getting in and out of the arboretum due to the free-flowing traffic on 5. Besides four-laning, this builds a traffic signal at 15 which will in the short term create gaps for arboretum traffic, and in the long term the arboretum driveway will be lined up with the new signal. The existing driveway will become a right out only, possibly to avoid delays when everyone leaves at the end of closing time or evens

2) Lake Elmo Ave and 36. This is a dangerous intersection that had a recent fatal crash and it's probably a race against the clock to do something before there's another one. The signal was only supposed to be very temporary but then the locals balked at the original plan to build an overpass with no access so it's been stuck in limbo. The plan shows Keats Ave staying as a RIRO to the north. If it's because of the farm store they should just make the owner an offer they can't refuse and then completely shut down the intersection.

3) Rockford Road overpass replacement: There's a separate project to convert the cloverleaf into a folded diamond to eliminate weaving for people in cars on 169 and make it easier for people on bikes and foot to cross over. The bridge is deteriorating and has only three foot "sidewalks" on either side.

4) 282 overpass: This will finally eliminate the last signal on 169 between St. Peter and the Twin Cities.

5) Manning extension. I would have liked the route to be more direct even it it involved taking property, but anything to discourage regional traffic from driving through downtown Stillwater is a win. I can even forsee Manning as a future principal aterial and the state taking it over in exchange for the current 95 through more dense areas along the river.

alexschief
Target Field
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby alexschief » June 7th, 2020, 10:46 am

Mdcastle wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 9:27 am
Not surprising considering highways cost more money but move far more people than transit, bike, and ped projects. To say nothing about most transit being dependent on highways.
Consider that there may be a circular relationship between these variables.

DanPatchToget
US Bank Plaza
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby DanPatchToget » June 7th, 2020, 2:30 pm

alexschief wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 10:46 am
Mdcastle wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 9:27 am
Not surprising considering highways cost more money but move far more people than transit, bike, and ped projects. To say nothing about most transit being dependent on highways.
Consider that there may be a circular relationship between these variables.
Adding on to that point: Which is more environmentally responsible, the status quo of rewarding environmentally damaging and inefficient modes of transportation, or halting this constant road building and instead investing heavily in transit, bike, and pedestrian projects?

Mdcastle
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Mdcastle » June 7th, 2020, 5:32 pm

Doesn't matter what is "environmentally responsible" or whatever this weeks buzzword is. Seems like outside of the urban bubble most people are clamoring for highway expansion because they don't want to be stuck in traffic or killed at a dangerous intersection, and nothing comes even remotely close to the freedom and convenience that comes with car transportation, and government exists to fulfill the will of the people. For a long time I thought that we needed an elected met council because they weren't putting enough money towards highway expansion for the suburbs like the suburbs want, but after looking at some of their past studies I now realize that there's just not enough money to fund everything even the met council wants.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby DanPatchToget » June 7th, 2020, 7:41 pm

Mdcastle wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 5:32 pm
Doesn't matter what is "environmentally responsible" or whatever this weeks buzzword is. Seems like outside of the urban bubble most people are clamoring for highway expansion because they don't want to be stuck in traffic or killed at a dangerous intersection, and nothing comes even remotely close to the freedom and convenience that comes with car transportation, and government exists to fulfill the will of the people. For a long time I thought that we needed an elected met council because they weren't putting enough money towards highway expansion for the suburbs like the suburbs want, but after looking at some of their past studies I now realize that there's just not enough money to fund everything even the met council wants.
It WILL matter when our climate gets worse. However, we can change that by letting go of conveniences like our dependence on driving at high speeds. Have you ever considered that maybe instead of making roads supposedly safer with widening and grade-separation people could slow down, pay attention, and drive safely?

nBode
Union Depot
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby nBode » June 8th, 2020, 5:54 am

I would just like to chime in quickly and say that, anecdotally (though there also exists research saying likewise, as well as countless other anecdotes)—having gone through periods of utilizing first a car (MSP suburbs), then a bicycle (Minneapolis proper), then public transit (Milan) as my primary means of transportation—I have found biking to be easily the most freeing and convenient, followed by public transit (assuming the system is good; MSP doesn't count), then automobile. This is to say that an assertion that "nothing comes even remotely close to the freedom and convenience that comes with car transportation" is entirely subjective opinion. The most free and convenient transportation system would likely be a well-balanced mix of a multitude of modes, and I'd bet that a favoring of bicycling and public transit over private automobiles would be the paradigm.

Mdcastle
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Mdcastle » June 8th, 2020, 6:12 am

How effective is not building a new overpass at Lake Elmo Ave. Or anything the United States does,, going to be at combating climate change in the context of what China and India are putting out. It's going to take some sort of technological revolution, perhaps electric cars combined with industrial scale carbon capture or atmospheric sulfur injection, not just the United States punishing itself by being stuck in traffic and forced to ride bikes and buses.

How effective at preventing the next person from being killed there is telling people to "slow down and drive carefully at Lake Elmo Ave" going to be compared to building an overpass?

DanPatchToget
US Bank Plaza
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby DanPatchToget » June 8th, 2020, 8:00 am

Mdcastle wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 6:12 am
How effective is not building a new overpass at Lake Elmo Ave. Or anything the United States does,, going to be at combating climate change in the context of what China and India are putting out. It's going to take some sort of technological revolution, perhaps electric cars combined with industrial scale carbon capture or atmospheric sulfur injection, not just the United States punishing itself by being stuck in traffic and forced to ride bikes and buses.

How effective at preventing the next person from being killed there is telling people to "slow down and drive carefully at Lake Elmo Ave" going to be compared to building an overpass?
Are you suggesting we just say screw it and continue with the status quo and dive into a climate crisis? Two wrongs don't make a right; just because China and India aren't doing their part doesn't mean the U.S. is excused for not doing their part.

We're already stuck in traffic. How? Because we're too dependent on cars and roads. If we had feasible bike and transit options then more people would gladly take those instead of having their eyes glued to a windshield and speeding down county roads. No one is forcing you to bike or take transit, but we are being forced to drive.

karlshea
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby karlshea » June 8th, 2020, 1:55 pm

You can't just wave your hands and change how our cities have been built for the last 200 years. Using a bicycle as primary transportation in the suburbs isn't feasible. It could have been were our cities built around that idea, but they weren't. It would probably make sense to start taxing residents based externalities like their need for more road building verses someone living somewhere more dense, but just saying "stop building roads" today is pushing an ideal requiring a reality that doesn't exist.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby DanPatchToget » June 8th, 2020, 2:42 pm

karlshea wrote:
June 8th, 2020, 1:55 pm
You can't just wave your hands and change how our cities have been built for the last 200 years. Using a bicycle as primary transportation in the suburbs isn't feasible. It could have been were our cities built around that idea, but they weren't. It would probably make sense to start taxing residents based externalities like their need for more road building verses someone living somewhere more dense, but just saying "stop building roads" today is pushing an ideal requiring a reality that doesn't exist.
In the 1800s our cities were built around railroads and ports. Anytime after the 1920s and then we're getting into auto-centric development. Anyways, just because bikes can't be the primary mode of transportation in the suburbs doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered a form of transportation at all. If we had better trails, bikeways, and bike lanes, and better behavior from motorists, then I guarantee a lot more trips in the suburbs would be feasible by bike.

Will we stop 100% of road building? Of course not, because there's always repaving, repairing, restriping, etc. But we need to reconsider these projects where people want another lane because their flawed logic is more lanes and roads equals less traffic.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 8th, 2020, 3:18 pm

The "But China and India" response to climate action is tiresome, especially since if we invested as much into solar and wind as China has, we would largely be done with coal and well on our way to clearing gas off our grid as well, and we might have kept the manufacturing of those industries here. If we chose to tax gas cars to promote electric cars, another action China has taken that we have not, we could speed up our transition to a zero carbon transportation sector. And I'm preaching to the choir on Sunday here, but if we had spent 5 trillion building a national high speed rail network instead of playing with tanks in the desert for twenty years, we would have competitive alternatives to short haul air trips and have less traffic.

So let's not concern troll about China and India. They're dirtier economies that also happen to be doing far more investing in green energy and technology than we are. That's not a reason to sit back and say "It's pointless," it's a national embarrassment.

Since we've decided here that we have to wait until capital groups can turn a profit on something before we deem it worthy, the best action we can take at the state and local level is not build things that encourage more fossil fuel usage. Like overpasses that induce demand.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby amiller92 » June 10th, 2020, 9:44 am

DanPatchToget wrote:
June 7th, 2020, 7:41 pm


It WILL matter when our climate gets worse. However, we can change that by letting go of conveniences like our dependence on driving at high speeds. Have you ever considered that maybe instead of making roads supposedly safer with widening and grade-separation people could slow down, pay attention, and drive safely?
It is no longer in the future.

Multimodal
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Multimodal » June 15th, 2020, 11:11 am

alexschief wrote:
June 6th, 2020, 5:58 pm
As always, it's wild when you compare the scale of the asks for highways versus the scale of the asks for transit, bike, and ped.
Yeah, and is roadway capacity ‘strategic’ anymore? Should it be?

Let’s #defundMNDOT and create a Multimodal Transportation Department instead. Too much baggage for MNDOT to ever change fast enough.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby DanPatchToget » June 15th, 2020, 12:22 pm

Multimodal wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 11:11 am
alexschief wrote:
June 6th, 2020, 5:58 pm
As always, it's wild when you compare the scale of the asks for highways versus the scale of the asks for transit, bike, and ped.
Yeah, and is roadway capacity ‘strategic’ anymore? Should it be?

Let’s #defundMNDOT and create a Multimodal Transportation Department instead. Too much baggage for MNDOT to ever change fast enough.
I would definitely support that. Seems like MnDOT's playbook these days is pretending to care about sustainability and climate change but sticking with the status quo because the majority of people want bigger roads and faster drives, even if that's not what we should be aiming for.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby SurlyLHT » June 24th, 2020, 11:03 am

Cottage Grove wants to build a new highway. Can anyone explain where this will go and why it's needed?
https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/22/c ... t-highway/

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Tiller
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Tiller » June 24th, 2020, 11:19 am

Looks like it goes from this intersection on 61, due west to this tiny blob of a township I've never heard of before.

https://m.imgur.com/a/rjzsO5w

DanPatchToget
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby DanPatchToget » June 24th, 2020, 11:29 am

I'm curious who thinks they "need" this new highway and what their reasoning is.

QuietBlue
Target Field
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby QuietBlue » June 24th, 2020, 1:28 pm

I also do not understand what the purpose behind this would be, unless they eventually decide to extend it all the way across the river, what with there being no crossing between the Wakota Bridge and Hastings. Building a highway to GCI seems strange when there's next to nothing there anyway.

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Anondson
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby Anondson » June 24th, 2020, 7:49 pm

The only need, IMO, is that the city foresees development will soon come to convert fertile river bottom farmland to tract homes, and the Keats and 10 interchange will have city-level commercial development to come with it.

Getting this road up to high volume spec is just meeting the inevitable.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Street, Road and Highway Projects

Postby DanPatchToget » June 24th, 2020, 8:16 pm

Or... don't do that and focus development where the road infrastructure is already sufficient, but I realize that's too much to ask for from an American suburb.


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