Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

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trigonalmayhem

Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby trigonalmayhem » August 25th, 2015, 3:29 pm

I'm torn, because on the one hand the thinly coded racism and dismissal of anyone who thinks equity issues are important annoys me, but on the other hand services like car 2 go are really a luxury and not a reliable transportation option. I'd prefer more effort be put into providing public transit that doesn't suck to these areas than trying to force expensive on demand car rental services to operate in places where no one uses them.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby kirby96 » August 25th, 2015, 3:38 pm

EOst wrote:I don't know about you, but personally I suspect the people best qualified to answer whether this is ~that kind~ of equity issue are the people who would be impacted by it.
...haven't the people impacted sort of answered by not using the service? Voted with their pocketbooks that they either can't afford it or don't care, much like I suspect they would respond to calls to build the hypothetical Lexus dealership in the name of equity?

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby EOst » August 25th, 2015, 3:47 pm

kirby96 wrote:
EOst wrote:I don't know about you, but personally I suspect the people best qualified to answer whether this is ~that kind~ of equity issue are the people who would be impacted by it.
...haven't the people impacted sort of answered by not using the service? Voted with their pocketbooks that they either can't afford it or don't care, much like I suspect they would respond to calls to build the hypothetical Lexus dealership in the name of equity?
People use the service, just not enough that Car2go thinks it wouldn't be more profitable to refocus those cars elsewhere. Note that the company has never said keeping those areas in service is itself unprofitable, or that refusal would cause them to withdraw from the city.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby amiller92 » August 25th, 2015, 3:51 pm

trigonalmayhem wrote: services like car 2 go are really a luxury and not a reliable transportation option.
Done right, it might be able to be a reliable transportation option. But part of that might be limiting it to where there is enough density to support it. Maybe.
I'd prefer more effort be put into providing public transit that doesn't suck to these areas than trying to force expensive on demand car rental services to operate in places where no one uses them.
Yes. Seems like a poor substitute for actual transit, unless it can be far cheaper than it currently is.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby Tiller » August 25th, 2015, 3:52 pm

EOst wrote:People use the service, just not enough that Car2go thinks it wouldn't be more profitable to refocus those cars elsewhere. Note that the company has never said keeping those areas in service is itself unprofitable, or that refusal would cause them to withdraw from the city.
I found the best resonse here guys. /thread

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby kirby96 » August 25th, 2015, 4:30 pm

EOst wrote:
kirby96 wrote:
EOst wrote:I don't know about you, but personally I suspect the people best qualified to answer whether this is ~that kind~ of equity issue are the people who would be impacted by it.
...haven't the people impacted sort of answered by not using the service? Voted with their pocketbooks that they either can't afford it or don't care, much like I suspect they would respond to calls to build the hypothetical Lexus dealership in the name of equity?
People use the service, just not enough that Car2go thinks it wouldn't be more profitable to refocus those cars elsewhere. Note that the company has never said keeping those areas in service is itself unprofitable, or that refusal would cause them to withdraw from the city.
The same could be argued of the hypothetical Lexus' dealership. Somebody would certainly use it, and Lexus might still be profitable in the state if they were forced to build it. But it's not likely enough folks would use it to make it a good allocation of resources (be they public or private). You'd be better off simply requiring Lexus to make a donation to public transportation than forcing them into such a scheme.

While I'm sure Car2Go is trying to maximize their profit, when you have a quickly depreciating asset like a car I think it's pretty hard to argue against squeezing every ounce of utility from it as possible. Even in the name of equity, building and buying equipment just to have it sit around underutilized is a pretty good indicator there's likely a better way, IMHO. I mean isn't that basically the argument against overbuilding roads as we currently do, especially in 'underserved' areas outstate?

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby EOst » August 25th, 2015, 5:18 pm

kirby96 wrote:The same could be argued of the hypothetical Lexus' dealership.
Except a Lexus dealership is a physical location, and Car2go is not.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby VAStationDude » August 25th, 2015, 5:46 pm

In places the city has considerable regulatory obligations like business licensing, parking and utility franchising the city should make reasonable demands to ensure impoverished areas of the city have access to urban amenities. Not just for equity reasons but the health of the entire city. Re populating the North Side with people across the income spectrum is essential to the economic and social vitality of Minneapolis. Car sharing and affordable fiber optic internet service are services that enhance urban living in Minneapolis. North should receive those services too.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby twincitizen » August 25th, 2015, 6:28 pm

^Now that is a really good argument and one I can get behind. Trying to shoehorn it into some racial equity platform only clouds the issue. Making all parts of the city equally attractive to middle and upper-middle class residents is the #1 tool we have to prevent further economic segregation and concentration of poverty.

PigsEye

Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby PigsEye » August 26th, 2015, 12:33 am

VAStationDude wrote:In places the city has considerable regulatory obligations like business licensing, parking and utility franchising the city should make reasonable demands to ensure impoverished areas of the city have access to urban amenities. Not just for equity reasons but the health of the entire city. Re populating the North Side with people across the income spectrum is essential to the economic and social vitality of Minneapolis. Car sharing and affordable fiber optic internet service are services that enhance urban living in Minneapolis. North should receive those services too.

Yes, but the car sharing program let's the users move the cars BACK into a community :lol: IF say Car2Go wanted to reduce the number of cars within a community because they are not getting used enough. Assuming they are not trying to remove the north neighbourhoods from the allowed usage zone.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby EOst » August 26th, 2015, 7:02 am

VAStationDude wrote:In places the city has considerable regulatory obligations like business licensing, parking and utility franchising the city should make reasonable demands to ensure impoverished areas of the city have access to urban amenities. Not just for equity reasons but the health of the entire city. Re populating the North Side with people across the income spectrum is essential to the economic and social vitality of Minneapolis. Car sharing and affordable fiber optic internet service are services that enhance urban living in Minneapolis. North should receive those services too.
-1

Given how few levers the city actually has for increasing the desirability of neighborhoods and encouraging a healthy mix of income, none of them should be neglected simply because a for-profit corporation wants to make a little bit more profit. Letting a company restrict its service to just the Uptown orbit would only further entrench the socioeconomic divides of the city.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby FISHMANPET » August 26th, 2015, 7:29 am

It's not the role of a private for profit company to fix socioeconomic problems in the city. Just because they for parking at meters doesn't mean the city has absolute control over them.

That being said, this is all just wild speculation until they start talking about definite service areas and release some financials. If cars in North are just less profitable than cars other places, then they should probably suck it up. If cars in North are actually losing money, then we should subsidize them somehow or deal with the fact that a car sharing service like this doesn't work very well in low density single family neighborhoods.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby Mdcastle » August 26th, 2015, 8:01 am

This is why I'm really skeptical of the "rental" model for self-driving cars. Right now we have all of the following alternatives to car ownership:
Car rental
Car Sharing
Ride Sharing
Taxis
Transit
And none of them have changed the car-ownership paradigm, and it appears car-sharing wants to retract. Self-Driving cars may be cheaper than ride-sharing and more convenient than transit, but you'd think they'd be more popular now if the paradigm was going to change in the future. I don't see anything earth shattering about a mode that might be slightly cheaper than ride sharing, or slightly more convenient than car sharing.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby mattaudio » August 26th, 2015, 8:40 am

Yet all of those things have significantly changed the car-ownership paradigm...
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ts/281528/

While I share your skepticism about rental self-driving cars, it's because they come with (nearly) all the problems and limitations of car use. Changes in land use away from car orientation (such as surge in urban living and a return of office workers to the core) is having a much bigger effect on car-ownership paradigm (transit, biking, and walking).

Also, while Car2Go is interested in restructuring its service in a few areas, it's so that they can actually provide more uses with their same fleet. I haven't seen any indication they wish to reduce their fleet in our market, but rather increase its utilization. Also keep in mind they have over 500 cars in our market, and didn't exist until two years ago. On the whole, there's no indication car sharing, or even Car2Go, is "retracting." While Car2Go is slightly different in that they don't use the standard nodal approach in the car sharing industry, this is more or less the equivalent of ZipCar or HourCar deciding they wish to move a car in their fleet from one underperforming node to a different high-demand node. Finally (since I started an actual car sharing firm 8 years ago now operated by Enterprise, and maybe am defensive of the industry...) car sharing is on a roll:

Image

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby twinkess » August 26th, 2015, 8:51 am

You started WeCar?

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby Mdcastle » August 26th, 2015, 8:55 am

I guess it's whether you look at trends or just the number. 1.95 cars per household instead of 2.05 doesn't seem much different to me. You can look at how car sharing vehicles have increased 6 times over the last 10 years, or look at the 12,000 car-sharing vehicles, as opposed to the 250,000,000 privately owned vehicles.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby mattaudio » August 26th, 2015, 8:57 am

twinkess wrote:You started WeCar?
A partner and I started xCar, which turned into a WeCar franchise after I left. Slightly different (and inferior, imo) business model but more or less the same core competency. Our value proposition was much tighter integration into University systems, to basically be an extension of the residential/campus experience for students at residential colleges.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby mulad » December 14th, 2015, 6:46 am

Car2Go is going to discuss cutting back the service area in St. Paul at a city council meeting this Wednesday.

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... rvice-area

The article mentions a two-year time period for the initial contract. It should still have six months to go considering the service started in St. Paul on July 1, 2014.

I'd still prefer they figure out a financial incentive for people to keep their network closer to the balance they prefer. Also, I don't think I've seen any marketing from them for quite a while.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby Andrew_F » December 14th, 2015, 10:48 pm

Check out the map of the proposed service area (last page): https://stpaul.legistar.com/View.ashx?M ... 5FCB9DFAF3

Yikes. That's a really drastic reduction. If a similar reduction were made in Minneapolis, I'm not sure we would really use our membership anymore, as just about everything in the reduced service area would have pretty good transit access.

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Re: Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Postby mamundsen » December 14th, 2015, 11:34 pm

Interestingly I'd say this corresponds with the Nice Ride map somewhat closely.


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