A Line - Arterial Rapid Bus

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Lancestar2

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby Lancestar2 » October 24th, 2014, 3:22 pm

twincitizen wrote:Well the hi-frequency network is more or less being replaced with the lettered arterial bus lines (with the exception of the 16, which was replaced by the Green Line), with few exceptions (no plans to upgrade the 515). The (weak) reasoning for not updating the Hi-Freq map is that they aren't really pushing that as a brand anymore. Plus, with opening another aBRT line every year, they'd be changing it quite often. It should just be removed from the website if they aren't going to bother keeping it current.

As far as a parent brand for the A Line, B Line, etc., it was going to be "Rapid Bus", but they scrapped that for the time being. The current thinking is that the letter line names provide enough branding on their own and don't need another layer of branding. After a few of them are rolled out, Metro Transit is going to reevaluate if they need a parent brand.

Thanks for the information and for the pictures in the above post as well. I guess with only 1 commuter 1 BRT 2 LRT lines in operation the vision is still kinda undefined. If the Red line, and aBRT paint schemes were flipped then the abrt and local bus line would have a simular format while the Red line BRT would have a more blue dominate color which would better relate to the blue LRT trains and the blue commuter trains. I do like the phase out of the high frequency bus routes. Instead of Rapid bus, I hope they consider labeling it under the Metro name. Metro A or Metro A Bus has a nice ring to it, plus when ever I think of Metro I think of a transit line that has high frequency in buses that I don't need to check to see the next bus time. If the aBrt buses can provide that then I don't see the reason not to include them. Are they concerned it would cheapen the Metro brand, or it's image?

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4759
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby David Greene » October 24th, 2014, 3:32 pm

twincitizen wrote:As far as a parent brand for the A Line, B Line, etc., it was going to be "Rapid Bus", but they scrapped that for the time being. The current thinking is that the letter line names provide enough branding on their own and don't need another layer of branding.
Best idea I've heard all day!

alleycat
Landmark Center
Posts: 282
Joined: January 12th, 2013, 1:30 pm
Location: Jordan, Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby alleycat » October 24th, 2014, 5:12 pm

twincitizen wrote:They state that articulated buses could be used on future arterial lines, which I imagine the first would be the D-Line (Chicago-Fremont, or today's Route 5).
The Penn Avenue C-Line will have articulated buses per the meeting I was at earlier this month.
Scottie B. Tuska
scottie.tuska@gmail.com

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2290
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby EOst » October 24th, 2014, 7:23 pm

I understand the reasoning behind not putting the aBRT lines under the METRO brand intellectually, but I still think it's a big mistake. Putting them all under METRO would not only greatly aid discoverability ("which Metro stop should I go to?") but it would also strongly bolster the METRO brand, which in my experience just hasn't been catching on. Right now, METRO is a brand that no-one cares about or understands, and I doubt that'll get any better once we have the Orange Line ("what makes that different from the other buses on Marquette?").

I mean, hell, if the technical details are really important for the branding, there are ways around that. We could call the trunk lines METRO and the aBRT lines "METRO Rapid" or "METRO Local", similar to what they do in Los Angeles. Sure, someone could get confused... once. But after that initial confusion, they'll know which ones are which, and I doubt they'll really care.

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3805
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby Silophant » October 24th, 2014, 7:49 pm

Agreed. Now, if the METRO brand was only going to be for trains, that would be one thing, but unless I'm missing something, aBRT has way more in common with METRO BRT than it does with normal buses. There's differences, sure, but that's why they get letters instead of colors.

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby FISHMANPET » October 24th, 2014, 8:59 pm

METRO, as it stands, means dedicated guide way. But yeah I don't know why they couldn't make a sub brand of METRO, I really like the idea of METRO Local or METRO Rapid.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7928
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby mattaudio » October 25th, 2014, 1:15 pm

Maybe they're avoiding branding aBRT with METRO to avoid degrading it by connection to the METRO Red Line.

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1545
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby talindsay » October 26th, 2014, 10:15 pm

I think they are anticipating that these aBRT lines will be as slow as limited stop buses are now - why would they be any faster? I think the idea is that METRO is a fast ride, whether our not it's frequent. By contrast, these lines are frequent, whether or not they're fast.

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4289
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby grant1simons2 » October 26th, 2014, 10:29 pm

why would they be any faster?
BRT = Bus Rapid Transit

That's why

hoffm83n
Metrodome
Posts: 52
Joined: April 22nd, 2013, 3:19 pm

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby hoffm83n » October 26th, 2014, 11:05 pm

however its also its a fast succession of buses arriving at stations . once these different routes get built out it will be much easier to categorize them as needed, both from a user and planning perspective. i think the important thing is to not change the branding of "A." changing the "hiawatha light rail" to the "blue line" wasn't bad because it was the only light rail, but since there's tons of buses there would be more confusion if "A" was changed to "purple."

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2290
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby EOst » October 27th, 2014, 6:09 am

talindsay wrote:I think they are anticipating that these aBRT lines will be as slow as limited stop buses are now - why would they be any faster?
Level boarding, signal voodoo, and off-board payment. Those three things alone will significantly cut time--not as much as even fewer stops and a dedicated lane would, of course, but it's not all-or-nothing either.

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby IllogicalJake » October 27th, 2014, 8:43 am

talindsay wrote:I think they are anticipating that these aBRT lines will be as slow as limited stop buses are now - why would they be any faster?
The Met Council is anticipating a 25% faster ride than the routes these aBRT lines are replacing.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1545
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby talindsay » October 27th, 2014, 8:48 am

IllogicalJake wrote:
talindsay wrote:I think they are anticipating that these aBRT lines will be as slow as limited stop buses are now - why would they be any faster?
The Met Council is anticipating a 25% faster ride than the routes these aBRT lines are replacing.
That seems like magic-thinking improvement to me. EOst's point about off-board payment and level boarding is right, those things will help. Signal "voodoo" might or might not help, depending on how it's implemented, but 25% would be pretty amazing. I guess we'll see.

Tom H.
Rice Park
Posts: 423
Joined: September 4th, 2012, 5:23 am

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby Tom H. » October 27th, 2014, 9:10 am

Well, seeing how this line runs almost entirely in St Paul, and given St Paul's track record with Green Line signal priority, I think skepticism is warranted. However, based on the line documentation (which I can't find now), they stated a very significant fraction of trip time was station and stoplight dwell time, so I think in principle all of these options (far-side stops, signal priority, off-board payment) could reach 25-30% trip time reductions. In principle.

EDIT: Found it. Only 60% of current trip times is spent in motion.

http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... elling.pdf

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3805
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby Silophant » October 27th, 2014, 9:33 am

I totally believe that. Honestly, I could believe a 20% savings from off-board payment alone. A group of 20 people getting on at one stop takes forever, even if everyone has Go-To cards.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2290
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby EOst » October 27th, 2014, 5:25 pm

I suspect that the bus will have an easier time getting priority than the Green Line did, both because St. Paul has some experience now with what that means (and doesn't mean), and also because the arterials Snelling crosses aren't as major as those University does. I can't put it past them to screw it up, though.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6194
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby twincitizen » November 18th, 2014, 8:12 am


Minnekid
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 118
Joined: August 21st, 2013, 12:23 am

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby Minnekid » November 19th, 2014, 12:29 am

I don't know if I understood this correctly, but it would go from Roseville to st Paul and then to Minneapolis. What's the purpose of that? Since it goes through major st Paul streets and looks like it's mostly for Roseville and st Paul, why not have it end at union depot and have people transfer onto the green line?

Scott Wood
Metrodome
Posts: 68
Joined: June 25th, 2012, 11:26 pm

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby Scott Wood » November 19th, 2014, 1:04 am

It's an upgrade to the 84, which follows the same route.

Minneapolis and Saint Paul are not zero-width points. There are other lines that serve the downtowns; this is not one of them. To go between Roseville and either downtown you can transfer to the Green Line at Snelling (though a bus to downtown Minneapolis may be faster, especially if you can catch a 264). Maybe there's merit in direct service between Roseville and downtown St Paul (though apparently not enough to keep the 65 going downtown), but what does that have to do with a line that's "mostly for" the Snelling corridor, Highland Park, and the southern end of the Blue Line?

LakeCharles
Foshay Tower
Posts: 831
Joined: January 16th, 2014, 8:34 am
Location: Kingfield

Re: "A Line" Snelling Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby LakeCharles » November 19th, 2014, 9:11 am

Minnekid wrote:I don't know if I understood this correctly, but it would go from Roseville to st Paul and then to Minneapolis. What's the purpose of that? Since it goes through major st Paul streets and looks like it's mostly for Roseville and st Paul, why not have it end at union depot and have people transfer onto the green line?
Unless you are going to drastically change this route, it would still run from Roseville to Highland Park. From there it is another 2 miles to the blue line, or 6+ miles to downtown St. Paul. Besides, this line already intersects with the green line at Snelling.


Return to “Transportation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests