Beg Buttons

[mattaudio]

Does it drive anyone else nuts that high-use bicycle crossings of streets, such as Minnehaha Parkway at Cedar/Chicago/Lyndale require beg buttons for cyclists to cross? Even worse is Lyndale, where the trail crosses next to a stretch of the parkway that is one way westbound. Therefore eastbound cyclists do not have a view of the stoplight since there is no light for their direction.


Why actuated signals are bad for pedestrians by Eric Fischer, on Flickr

[UptownSport]

I heard bikes don't have to stop, just ignore

[Andrew_F]

I haven't pushed one of these in years. I very rarely ride my bike on a path rather than the street, so I can't think of any situations like the ones you are describing. As a pedestrian, I generally jaywalk when there are breaks in traffic rather than waiting for a signal. If there is heavy traffic and motor traffic in my direction gets the green, I will cross regardless of the pedestrian signal. I refuse to participate in something that relegates the pedestrian to second-class roadway users.

[mister.shoes]

My wife and I walk or bike this stretch of the Parkway on a near-daily basis and I completely agree with your criticisms. The amount of ped/cycle traffic on the Parkway is incredible, especially in the early-evening hours when everyone is home from work and getting in their daily exercise before dinner. Having to press a button to cross is ridiculous. There are new signals going in at the Chicago intersection, but it's too early to tell if the buttons are being preserved or removed.

As for Lyndale, that one really upsets me as well. We had a conversation about the exact issue that you mention: "is the light green? Can we cross? The sign says no walking, but the cars are crossing." It's really dumb—and that signal is brand new, to boot.

[gpete]

I commented in another thread that Hennepin County has been installing these beg button traffic signals on some of the county roads (Lyndale, Lake, Franklin, etc).

The really crappy thing is that it is a violation of state law to cross against a "don't walk" signal. So if we arrive at an intersection a moment too late to press the button, and even if the light is green, crossing against a "don't walk" signal is illegal. I doubt you'll get a ticket for it, but it could have real legal ramifications if you get hit by a car while crossing "illegally."

From Minnesota state statutes:

169.21 PEDESTRIAN.
Subdivision 1.Obey traffic-control signals. Pedestrians shall be subject to traffic-control signals at intersections as heretofore declared in this chapter, but at all other places pedestrians shall be accorded the privileges and shall be subject to the restrictions stated in this section and section

and 169.06, subd. 6:

(2) A "Don't Walk" signal or the symbol of an "upraised hand," flashing or steady, indicates that a pedestrian shall not start to cross the roadway in the direction of either signal, but any pedestrian who has partially crossed on the "Walk" or "walking person" signal indication shall proceed to a sidewalk or safety island while the signal is showing.

More legal stuff here: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169

[mattaudio]

But are bicyclists legally pedestrians in these cases? Sure, they're on a recreational sidepath, but that's about where the similarities stop.

[gpete]

Probably a bit of a gray area; depends on whether or not it's considered a "sidewalk:"

From 169.222:

(f) A person lawfully operating a bicycle on a sidewalk, or across a roadway or shoulder on a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances.

[Mdcastle]

It's a nuisance when I'm riding my bike on the parkway paths and I have to step out of my toe clips, but the technology to sense pedestrians at an intersection isn't quite there yet even though sensing cars has been possible for decades. I have a traffic signal controller that runs on vacuum tubes that has vehicle inputs (probably radar rather than inductive loops because of the time period), although technology is being worked on to sense peds. As A driver I'd be happy to lean out the window to push a button if that's what it took, but fortunately it's not.

Until pedestrian sensing Is more widespread maybe they could modify the signals it to give an automatic walk signals during peak times for bicycle and pedestrian traffic, while waiting for someone to push It at 3:00 in the morning. Having the walk turn on even without a button during peak times could reinforce people's notion that the buttons don't do anything, but ADA requirements require having buttons everywhere even with an walk signal that goes on every cycle. Implementing ADA compliant buttons has been a huge headache because the buttons need custom programming, tend to go bad, and need to be situated where they're easy to knock down by careless drive.

[the_elop]

I've noticed a lot of intersections with the newer beg buttons that will change to a "walk" signal even without pressing the button. I believe the ones near the new St Paul Central LRT station are like this. Not sure what the point of the button is in this case, unless it's solely for those with a visual impairment since it speaks?

[Mdcastle]

To be clear it's an absolute requirement that all new traffic signals have beg buttons (and countdown indicators). The buttons also have to be located next to and parallel to the crosswalks, which generally require at least one to be on it's own pole, and some (all?) vibrate when a walk signal is given.

My understanding is that there's some controversy in the handicapped community about such things. One side is very litigious about making us make all kinds of accommodations to them, not just beg buttons and curb cuts but things like having currency different sizes, while the other side wants to be able to be treated like everyone else. The National Federation for the Blind is of the latter side, and they actually opposes systematic installations of Accessible Pedestrian Signals, since the raised domes on the sidewalk can trap snow and ice, the audible warnings can mask the sound of a car driving into the crosswalk during the Walk indication.

[UptownSport]

I want a button for my car. With advances in technology, we should have an app to change lights.

Wasted: Millions of hours sitting at lights for no reason
millions of $$ in fuel idling
Tons of pollution

[ECtransplant]

I want a button for my car. With advances in technology, we should have an app to change lights.

Wasted: Millions of hours sitting at lights for no reason
millions of $$ in fuel idling
Tons of pollution

It's called motion sensors. And plenty of cities have them on lights for use during non-peak periods.

[talindsay]

We could just do like every other major developed nation other than the US and Canada, and do away with 90% of stop signs and 50% of stop lights, replacing them all with yield signs. I suppose that doesn't help the blind much though.

[mattaudio]

Don't you know that motorists will crash into everything at high speed unless they have a red light in front of them or a jersey barrier or clear zone to the side of them?

[mulad]

Some of the walk signals work automatically along the Central Corridor, but it's been pretty hit-or-miss in my experience. I generally find these new talking units annoying, though they are typically located in somewhat better locations than buttons used to be (they can still be pretty bad, though). I remember a button on the southwest corner of University and Raymond that must have been 15-20 feet from the curb cut.

I haven't really figured out how the audible announcements actually help. There are many times when they're hard to understand, and they seem to announce both sides of the street at the same time -- I'd think it would be better to have the announcements and sounds work in a ping-pong fashion, with the devices at each end of the crosswalk taking turns to make noise. Maybe they all get configured wrong around here? (Or maybe my memory is just being flaky...)

I'd prefer if all walk lights come on automatically, at every time in a cycle when pedestrians can cross without conflicting movements (at more complex intersections), and the beg buttons were only there to provide audio announcements for the people who want them.

[Mdcastle]

I want a button for my car. With advances in technology, we should have an app to change lights.

Wasted: Millions of hours sitting at lights for no reason
millions of $$ in fuel idling
Tons of pollution

It's called motion sensors. And plenty of cities have them on lights for use during non-peak periods.

Actually someone figured out that if you put an ordinary strobelight on a car and set it for 14hz the light would turn green because it would trigger the 3M Opticom sensors for emergency vehicles. That's since been made illegal in Minnesota, and it no longer works since the system is now encrypted. And "beg buttons" for cars actually work by either an inductive loop or a video cameras (radar is no longer used) rather than motion detectors. Video cameras are much newer but there's drawbacks to both systems such that neither predominates. Before Beg Buttons became mandatory for all intersections if there was a Beg Button for pedestrians in a given direction there's generally a sensor for cars.

The problem with just giving a Walk when there's no conflicting vehicle movements is that is it can seriously degrade performance to cars when there might not even be any pedestrians there, especially at wider, higher volume suburban intersections, which seems fine to the people that want to get rid of Beg Buttons since they act like they want to ban cars too. Also, you'd still need buttons unless you want the side street to go green periodically and degrade performance even if there's no pedestrians, or possibly even no cars there.

[mattaudio]

^that really applies to your average suburban stoplight where a collector meets an arterial, and the arterial always has green unless an induction loop or beg button triggers a green for the collector. Those intersections are so hostile in the first place that it doesn't necessarily make sense to get rid of a beg button unless we completely rethink mobility in that type of land use.

What we're talking about here are urban streets meeting urban streets. More specifically, parkway paths where there are often as many cyclists as there are motorists. And these are intersections that automatically change phase for cars without a trigger. Therefore it doesn't make sense to apply suburban stroad stoplight engineering standards to urban street intersections. It does make sense to automatically give the walk light whenever there's a green phase for cars (and if we built more bumpouts, we could actually reduce the impact of this phase extension since the crossing distance would be shorter). Finally, whenever we have dedicated bicycle trails at stoplights, they should get a regular traffic light just like cars so they know if it's okay to bike across.

[UptownSport]

The problem with just giving a Walk when there's no conflicting vehicle movements is that is it can seriously degrade performance to cars when there might not even be any pedestrians there, especially at wider, higher volume suburban intersections, which seems fine to the people that want to get rid of Beg Buttons since they act like they want to ban cars too. Also, you'd still need buttons unless you want the side street to go green periodically and degrade performance even if there's no pedestrians, or possibly even no cars there.

Someone on MSP??? Gosh, now.

Seriously, lots more needs to be done on lights for autos- People are sitting when there's no opposing cars.
As said, a massive waste of resources.

I don't have an issues walking across busiest intersections- I'm not sure where problem is that needs to be fixed.
Push the 'Push to walk' button and follow the light.

[mattaudio]

Dismount your bicycle and press a beg button far from the curb cut and wait an extra cycle? You obviously do not bike in the city.

[PhilmerPhil]

Can't we just replace 90% of the stoplights in the city with 4-way stop signs, or at least make them flash red during off-peak hours? Bonus points for enacting the Idaho stop law in conjunction with this change.