MN Highway 36

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
UptownSport
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MN Highway 36

Postby UptownSport » November 28th, 2012, 3:14 pm

I still notice kids attempting to cross HWY 36 nominally between Har-Mar and Rosedale.
It's nearly impossible to get across Snelling bridge on foot or bike, it's more or less freeway.
I recall crossing here when I was a kid, and my buddies, too (that was decades ago).

Why wouldn't their be a footbridge here???? Vast amounts of people using both malls, and fairly dense neighborhood South of 36

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woofner
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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby woofner » November 28th, 2012, 4:32 pm

The short answer is that no one cares about pedestrians. The long answer is that no one cares enough about pedestrians, since it would be relatively more expensive to build a bridge here where the highway is more or less at grade.
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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby MNdible » November 28th, 2012, 4:50 pm

Didn't we discuss this at length on the old forum? Noticed that the sidewalk improvements along Fairview are done.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby mulad » November 28th, 2012, 5:28 pm

Yeah, we covered this at some point. I still think it's a good idea. One should shoot straight off from the Herberger's wing. The highway is definitely below grade at this spot, though admittedly only by 10 feet or so.


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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby MNdible » November 28th, 2012, 6:35 pm

Realistically, how many people do we think might use this on any given day? Related, what would be the minimum number of users necessary to justify building it, assuming, say, a $3 million price tag?

Assuming that there is a finite budget for pedestrian improvements, is this really where you'd spend this money?

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby UptownSport » November 28th, 2012, 7:07 pm

People are, and certainly have been crossing the freeway here for ages at some frequency- What's the cost of a mangled kid?
I'm fricken shocked everytime I see it- Last time it wasn't a kid, but a lady ...

Rosedale has a VAST draw, including, IIRC, a major transit point. There are also multiple destinations ringing the complex.
Har-Mar is similar, but on a smaller scale- and I forgot that the 'University' moved near Target.
Assumption is at least a fraction of a percent would use the walkway, and perhaps it would draw more employees, shoppers, and riders.

Ped crossings over 94 seem to have little traffic, yet at least one's been replaced.

If this isn't integrated into Snelling bridge replacement, my thought is it needs to be done as a public safety measure

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby mulad » November 28th, 2012, 9:00 pm

There is a cluster of apartments on the south end of where I put the bridge, which would probably become pretty popular with people who work at the mall.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby UptownSport » November 29th, 2012, 3:27 am

I think they built even more on that spot- Plus there's apartments (albeit more upscale; customers?) all along hwy 36 and south of Cty Rd B.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby mattaudio » November 29th, 2012, 9:33 am

This also begs the question: Should Snelling be a quasi-freeway between county B and county C?

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woofner
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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby woofner » November 29th, 2012, 12:25 pm

MNdible wrote:Realistically, how many people do we think might use this on any given day? Related, what would be the minimum number of users necessary to justify building it, assuming, say, a $3 million price tag?
The only relevant number here is the cost of the Snelling interchange. MnDot made the choice to build a facility on a major thoroughfare in an urban area that is impossible to walk across. The $3m or whatever it costs to build a ped bridge should be considered a part of the cost of the Snelling interchange. It would not be a "pedestrian amenity" - it is a basic responsibility of a transportation department.

But yes, there are thousands of people who work within a half-mile of this interchange who would probably walk to a restaurant at work every once in a while if they didn't have to add a mile to their trip by crossing at Fairview.

And yes, there are many other needed pedestrian improvements in the Rosedale area, as there are in every suburb. Roseville waited for Federal money to add a sidewalk on the east side of Fairview as it crosses under Hwy 36. This didn't magically make Rosedale into a pleasant or safe place to walk. For one thing, it only extends north as far as the frontage road, at which point someone continuing north would have to cross to the west side, then cross again a couple blocks north. All the while this potential, theoretical pedestrian would have to dodge cars speeding around the multiple slip ramps at every intersection. Finally, even the new easterly sidewalk on the underpass will likely need to be shared with cyclists attracted by the new bike lane, which of course stops just in time for the underpass.

In short, Roseville is a mess. The ped bridge won't fix it, but neither will it be fixed without the ped bridge.
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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby MNdible » November 29th, 2012, 3:36 pm

The entire Rosedale area is a pedestrian disaster, not because of the Snelling bridge, but because the land uses are designed for automobiles. It's a lost cause. We'd be better served to focus our energies where they'll have real benefits for significant numbers of pedestrians.

Also, pedestrian overpasses over highways are underused even in otherwise quality environments.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby mattaudio » November 29th, 2012, 3:38 pm

Let's say hypothetically the 36/51 interchange needed complete replacement and was programmed into a future budget. What would people like to see here to accommodate a modern pedestrian/transit friendly development?

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby mulad » November 29th, 2012, 7:06 pm

Well, I agree with the others who've mentioned that Roseville's land uses are totally messed up, so I think an ultimate solution should be put in the context of a citywide effort to change zoning, give the city a real street grid, and make pedestrian and transit improvements all over the place, but here's a basic whack at it:

While I suspect the traffic counts are a bit on the high end of what's feasible, taking out the cloverleaf ramps and replacing them with a dumbbell interchange with roundabouts on either end seems like the most straightforward option. That should be possible with the existing bridges, and the existing auxiliary lane on each one could probably be converted to a bike/ped path (I'd be pretty wary about actually trying to use those paths, but it might work...). I'd put the south roundabout roughly at Commerce Street so drivers could go that way to get to Target rather than making a left at County B and another at the Target driveway.

On the north side of the interchange, I'd really like to see some sort of shortcut built to allow buses into Rosedale without having to go through the folded diamond at County B2 and then looping around the Rosedale parking lot. It can take 10 minutes for a bus to get from the Rosedale Transit Center down to Skillman Ave even though it's only 2/3 of a mile as the crow flies. Route 84 only takes 37 to 40 minutes end-to-end, so there is a ton of time being wasted in that short stretch.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby MSP » November 29th, 2012, 7:07 pm

The area around Rosedale is a lot better than it used to be pedestrian wise. There are fairly new trails along both county rd B2 and county rd C in the area. I walked to Rosedale on my lunch break yesterday, took me 5 minutes.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby UptownSport » November 29th, 2012, 7:12 pm

Snelling is freeway or a defacto freeway north of B.

I'd assume there would be multiple categories of users;
Employees of Rosedale complex
Kids doing whatever kids do
Resident Shoppers
Commuter Bicyclists who's destination isn't necessarily Rosedale / Har-Mar
Rosedale to Har-Mar shoppers (& vice-versa)

For the latter, Mulad's map shows is people would still have to cross Snelling (Not to mention it would be a bit farther than suburban shoppers would be comfortable walking) to get to / from har-mar. I think employees would be happy with anything they got.
This mall is rather upscale and could certainly contribute to the walkway, perhaps more at 'upscaling' a basic walkway (enclosures, heating, etc)

Perhaps an elevated, enclosed walkway from Rosedale, under Snelling, over 36 and an outlet near target would be the 'aim high' plan?

My suggestions,

East Rosedale Parklot (Adjacent to existing bus stop) underpass to DOT parklot (about a 100' Culvert)
Ped / Bike hwy 36 overpass on both sides of Snelling:
East: From DOT parklot to American University Parklot
West: The Mulad plan; from Rosedale South parklot to Hwy 36 S service road.

As said, I don't know what to do about crossing Snelling South of 36- It's a real mess

I don't believe it's logical to say: because Roseville is so broken; Therefore it's useless to do any improvements- That would seem to be a logical fallacy.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby Lancestar2 » November 29th, 2012, 8:19 pm

If a bridge would cost about 3 Million how much would a tunnel under the road cost? Waiting until the next road resurfacing couldn't they basically place a 8-10 ft. concrete pipe under the road. Dig a few drain tiles string a few lights and wires for outdoor usage to weather the elements maybe a few retaining walls on each side and couldn't it be built on the cheap for less than a Million? If it's going to be a low capacity why does it need to be big and expensive.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby MNdible » November 29th, 2012, 9:27 pm

"Throwing good money after bad" may be a logical fallacy, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Not sure why we're so obsessed about fixing this particular spot.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby mulad » November 30th, 2012, 12:43 am

Whatever. I'm tired of your attitude. People risk death on a regular basis by walking through this interchange. The value of a human life is pegged around $8-10 million these days. Rosedale has 12 million visitors a year. $3m (or whatever) for a ped bridge is chump change in comparison. A bike/ped connection is a missing element that wasn't included when the cloverleaf and mall were built (in the late '50s and late '60s, respectively).

Is it sending good money after bad? Perhaps. But if you want to look at it in that light, the alternative is to only send bad money after bad. redisciple got it right in saying that this should be included in the cost of the interchange. When it was built 50 years ago, it was never really finished. Adding a safe crossing here would finally make it complete.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby MNdible » November 30th, 2012, 9:29 am

But think of the children.

Alright, I'm the bad guy. Carry on. Build the bridge so that the people in this disconnected cluster of apartments can walk through the giant parking lot to get to the mall.

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Re: HWY 36 walkway????

Postby mattaudio » November 30th, 2012, 9:34 am

Maybe the reason why there's a giant parking lot and the cluster of apartments are disconnected is because Snelling crosses 36 in a freeway to freeway interchange without even a shoulder for pedestrians to use.


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