Pleasant Street and Pillsbury Drive Roundabout

[David Greene]

IIt's obvious where the old section is, where the U expanded with the Mall, and stuff since then expanding along Washington. Northrop and Coffman perfectly frame the Mall area as a great sense of place,

I agree with all of this. The Knoll is a fantastic place and the Mall works well and will be even better without auto traffic. It's what you get when a real architect designs space.

and walking through it you see to the left/right connections to the other areas (the concentration of engineering buildings east of Church, etc).

This is where it starts to break down for me. Maybe it's the contrasting architecture, though I've been on other campuses where that's not a problem. Church St. to me feels like a barrier, though a small one. Same with Harvard. There's something about crossing asphalt that makes the area across the street feel slightly disconnected from the rest. Maybe it's simply the fact that I have to look left & right before heading to my destination.

Washington has been a huge problem and that will hopefully get better, though I don't know that LRT will make it feel any more connected.

As a bit of a side note, my wife had a conference at the Radisson a few months back and I babysat for the day. It was cold & raining and we traveled the "Gopher Way" through tunnels and skyways to get to Coffman. Wow, what a horrible experience that was. The wayfinding is terrible and we got lost a couple of times. Hasselmo Hall was the worst. I believe the U has successfully designed a climate-controlled pedestrian system that argues effectively against skyways.

We would have walked outside but I really didn't want to expose a one-month-old to cold and wet weather.

Either way, I think this roundabout test will pass, especially if there are some decent street markings to support it.

Yeah. Seems like a no-brainer. If they use the existing median, won't Pillsbury need to get realigned a bit to encourage people to go around the roundabout rather than through the intersection as they currently do?

[exiled_antipodean]

The Minnehaha roundabout is one the worst places for bikes in the city. Mainly because bikes are obviously the slower vehicle and are supposed to stay on the right in general, but that's the wrong place for them if they are going to the 2nd or 3rd right turn (I hope that made sense). And I hope that doesn't happen here because the U has a ton of bikers and isn't to friendly towards them.

Interesting, never thought of it that way tho' I've biked through that roundabout a lot. If I'm biking on the road I just take the whole lane. A bike is pretty much going the same speed as cars at that point.

[RailBaronYarr]

This is where it starts to break down for me. Maybe it's the contrasting architecture, though I've been on other campuses where that's not a problem. Church St. to me feels like a barrier, though a small one. Same with Harvard. There's something about crossing asphalt that makes the area across the street feel slightly disconnected from the rest. Maybe it's simply the fact that I have to look left & right before heading to my destination.

For the length of the Mall, Church is pavers and full of pedestrian activity (like the farmer's market that goes on there, tons of bike racks, etc). North of there you could walk in to the street at pretty much any time of day and not have to worry about cars.

As a bit of a side note, my wife had a conference at the Radisson a few months back and I babysat for the day. It was cold & raining and we traveled the "Gopher Way" through tunnels and skyways to get to Coffman. Wow, what a horrible experience that was. The wayfinding is terrible and we got lost a couple of times. Hasselmo Hall was the worst. I believe the U has successfully designed a climate-controlled pedestrian system that argues effectively against skyways.

Hate the Gopher Way system. Honestly, I never really knew anyone that used it, save for perhaps 1 or 2 skyways connecting buildings with similar stuff going on inside (Lind to the ME building sharing engineering stuff, Kolthoff-Smith sharing Chem). The underground system was a pain to find, get to, and all the turns/twists wasted so much time. To me, not unlike the skyway system downtown. The majority of the 'really cold' season is during winter break, for rain I have an umbrella/jacket. Just seems like a waste (of resources and time).

[eazydp]

The Minnehaha roundabout is one the worst places for bikes in the city. Mainly because bikes are obviously the slower vehicle and are supposed to stay on the right in general, but that's the wrong place for them if they are going to the 2nd or 3rd right turn (I hope that made sense). And I hope that doesn't happen here because the U has a ton of bikers and isn't to friendly towards them.

Interesting, never thought of it that way tho' I've biked through that roundabout a lot. If I'm biking on the road I just take the whole lane. A bike is pretty much going the same speed as cars at that point.

I agree. I bike it and drive it frequently and get nervous from both ends. I normally take the lane as well, but sometimes, along with many other bikers, I follow the bike/ped path and have to cross outside the roundabout, waiting for traffic to yield twice. Roundabouts do not seem to be pedestrian friendly, because generally cars and focusing on yielding to each other then getting out, not focusing on yielding to ped-exing when exiting.

[Tom H.]

The Knoll is a fantastic place and the Mall works well and will be even better without auto traffic. It's what you get when a real architect designs space.

Agreed. I work in the Physics dept. in Tate Lab, and I'm really not looking forward to moving into the new Physics and Nanotech Building. The facilities will be superb, but you can't beat working right on Northrop Mall. The beauty of that part of campus is a big part of why I chose the U of M for my graduate work.

[MNdible]

Also, the [ahem] scenery on Northrop Mall is pretty good. Wink wink, nudge nudge.

[exiled_antipodean]

Roundabouts do not seem to be pedestrian friendly, because generally cars and focusing on yielding to each other then getting out, not focusing on yielding to ped-exing when exiting.

As my username implies I'm not originally from round here

My personal observation would be that drivers here have a problem with yielding to pedestrians at marked crossings regardless of the roundabout. I think most of the research suggests roundabouts are superior for pedestrian safety, but I grant that there's probably a familiarity issue for many people that makes them seem less safe.

[mulad]

I snapped some phone-cam shots on Thursday. They used some massive barriers which did not make me happy as a pedestrian -- seems like they're trying to corral students into only using narrow spots for crossing. The one upside was that they included a pedestrian crossing on the north side of the roundabout, which has been sorely lacking for a long time -- in the past, you've generally had to either use the south side of the traffic circle or go 3/4ths of a block north to the crossing in front of Folwell Hall. They implemented it in sort of a zig-zag path to get around the south end of the center island, but presumably that'd be changed to be a straight shot if/when they actually change the layout.

The roadway in the roundabout is narrowed quite a bit versus the traffic circle, so bicycles would pretty much be required to go single-file along with cars and buses. Maybe that's okay? I'm not entirely thrilled by it -- I'd like some designated space for bikes, but that sort of conflicts with the need for buses to cross over the bike lane immediately north of here. There's also a problem that the design turned the southbound/westbound bus stop back into an arrangement like a bus bay, where buses need to immediately merge into traffic after unloading/loading. If car and bike volumes are even moderate, I think that introduces a lot of delay and frustration for the bus drivers/passengers and anyone who might have to get "shoved" out of the way by one of the more aggressive bus drivers.

Lower, roughly knee-high barriers are in the foreground, while hip- or waist-high barriers are in the background here:


A shot of the northern part of the circle -- the pole partly blocks the opening for the pedestrian crossing:


Some shots of the crossing itself, which doesn't seem wide enough for campus pedestrian traffic:






I guess I've envisioned something more like this (which represents a far busier intersection, at least in terms of vehicular/bicycle traffic):


Here's a longer video of the same place without the voiceovers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQKjc_xZq6s

[orangevening]

Loved on the video cars yielded patiently for bikers. And a few kids on bikes!! Cool that the parents felt safe about it

[FISHMANPET]

I biked through this going through on Pleasant St, and I thought it was fine. Traffic should be pretty light here once buses are going back down Washington. And I'm fine with the barriers currently, as it's just an experiment on how the traffic works.

The cameras in the intersection say "Department of Civil Engineering" and I've seen people that look young enough to be students wearing yellow vests observing, I wonder if this is a student project somehow?

[David Greene]

I If car and bike volumes are even moderate, I think that introduces a lot of delay and frustration for the bus drivers/passengers and anyone who might have to get "shoved" out of the way by one of the more aggressive bus drivers.

Just noting that those "aggressive" drivers are in fact following the law. Car and bike operators who don't yield to buses entering from a stop are breaking it.

[transportationist]

I biked through this going through on Pleasant St, and I thought it was fine. Traffic should be pretty light here once buses are going back down Washington. And I'm fine with the barriers currently, as it's just an experiment on how the traffic works.

The cameras in the intersection say "Department of Civil Engineering" and I've seen people that look young enough to be students wearing yellow vests observing, I wonder if this is a student project somehow?

I believe there is a Before/After evaluation being done by the Minnesota Traffic Observatory in CE.

[FISHMANPET]

On my way to Dinkytown I saw a sign that instructed bikes to take the whole lane. On my way back to Dinkytown I saw a biker squeeze between the barriers and a bus.

There's always more and it's always worse.

[Tom H.]

This roundabout has been extremely congested this week with the closure of the westbound lane across the Washington Ave Bridge. Buses bound for DT Mpls are stopping at the Jones/Eddy stop as usual, and then looping around the roundabout to get back on 4th and cross on the 19th Ave bridge - this is causing some slowdowns. Cars and buses heading north through the roundabout were backed up as far as I could see.

All of these observations were from the Monday PM rush hour, so hopefully some commuters have adjusted their routes, but the roundabout was certainly not free-flowing at this volume of traffic.

[FISHMANPET]

Part of this is because all that traffic has to go on 4th St, which is pretty much a parking lot this time of day. I think my commute home on the 2 was doubled when I was foolish enough to take the bus on Monday.

[mattaudio]

time for bus/bike lane on 4th and university?

[Tom H.]

time for bus/bike lane on 4th and university?

Time for two-way traffic on 4th and University.

[RailBaronYarr]

I'd be ok with leaving it as one-way pair if it were calmed and other modes that use 11' of ROW more efficiently got dedicated lanes. Is there a comparison of how this roundabout is functioning vs other options given the heavier than normal traffic?

[Tom H.]

Looks like both University and 4th are about 65' wide. I'd propose turning University into a more of a thoroughfare, with streetcar and through traffic, and turn 4th back into more of a neighborhood street.

University: http://streetmix.net/-/34154
4th: http://streetmix.net/-/34182

[RailBaronYarr]

I think most of both 4th and University are more like 75' wide (at least using the Hennepin Co GIS distance measurement tool from prop line to line). The only area I see that isn't that wide is where University passes Roy Wilkins Hall and it narrows a bit (the southern property line drifts north there, but there is a bunch of open grassy space so maintaining 75' wouldn't be difficult if necessary.). Crossing 35W also narrows down a little, obviously.

I know it's been discussed before, but I actually like the idea of a streetcar (or whatever) running in a dedicated ROW in a one-way pair setup. Some people want to access the U (so University makes sense) while others may be traveling to/from Dinkytown (so 4th would make sense). Split the difference and keep them both as one-way pairs with dedicated ROW for transit and bikes. 2 Thru-lanes each direction, a bike lane against a dedicated streetcar/BRT lane, and one side on-street parking for both (could be used as left-turn lanes at intersections if necessary or pedestrian bulbs): http://streetmix.net/alexcecchini/6/uni ... -dinkytown