Pleasant Street and Pillsbury Drive Roundabout

[FISHMANPET]

PTS is going to install a mock roundabout at this intersection to see how it would work, with the intention of making it permanent if it works.
http://www1.umn.edu/pts/news/index.html#Roundabout

On Wednesday, July 24, Parking and Transportation Services will install temporary traffic control devices that simulate a roundabout at the intersection of Pleasant Street and Pillsbury Drive.
The temporary roundabout will be installed after the morning rush hour on July 24 and will be removed on Wednesday, August 21.

[MNdible]

Isn't there a real roundabout already at this intersection?

[FISHMANPET]

There's the pavement for it, and I don't remember what the traffic control situation was before they rerouted all the buses through there, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a proper roundabout. Right now there's stoplights due to the increase bus traffic.

[FISHMANPET]

Google Maps has a somewhat current picture of the area:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=44.977904,- ... 1&t=h&z=20

The flower boxes have blocked off that center area, and there's also stop lights that don't show up in that picture.

[RailBaronYarr]

When I was in school, it didn't have the planters blocking the northern part of the street. Pillsbury east of Pleasant was closed to non-emergency/delivery vehicles (though this is now open). The intersections didn't have lights as they do now (which is odd for this area...) And buses came through here (the 3 for sure, am I crazy or did the 2 also route here?). And everyone used the center island as a roundabout, no issues. This is a natural conversion to a roundabout, IMO.

[FISHMANPET]

There were a couple 2E routes in the early morning that skipped going down Washington Ave all the way to the Alumni Center and took Pleasant St as a shortcut into Dinkytown before going back down 4th/University to Hennepin. But most of the trips went down to the block by the Alumni center.

[source: I've ridden the 2 literally thousands of times]

[RailBaronYarr]

^Maybe that's what I'm thinking of, since I had a lot of early classes and marching band practices as well. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

[mulad]

The old configuration was some type of traffic circle, but probably wouldn't qualify as a roundabout. I think there was at least one stop sign in the circle, which breaks the cardinal rule of roundabouts where traffic in the circle has right-of-way. It has also always been too easy to go the wrong way around (and the current setup enforces that).

But anyway, it's a good idea to convert the intersection to a proper roundabout -- they should have done that a long time ago.

[talindsay]

Yes, it was a northeast style traffic circle but not a roundabout. The current arrangement is awful for everybody so anything should be an improvement.

[exiled_antipodean]

hopefully they'll be emboldened by this experience to put a roundabout in at Beacon and Walnut too (by the Rec Center), one of the world's most ridiculous signalized intersections.

[MNdible]

Just my personal opinion, and I know lots of people love them some roundabouts, but as a pedestrian, I'd rather have a signalized intersection.

[mulad]

I think that's true in some cases, but the high amount of foot traffic here makes me feel that some sort of continuous-flow intersection is best, since it keeps queue sizes smaller for everyone -- actually, now that I think about it, I've felt that the streets around campus should really be treated as shared space, since there's a high proportion of pedestrian, bike, and other traffic (rollerbladers, skateboarders, mopeds, wheelchairs if you want to categorize them separately). The pre-stoplight configuration behaved a lot like shared space, with pedestrians often the dominant users. The unusual intersection layout helped that somewhat, but it was never really designed with the mix of uses in mind.

[RailBaronYarr]

I think that's true in some cases, but the high amount of foot traffic here makes me feel that some sort of continuous-flow intersection is best, since it keeps queue sizes smaller for everyone -- actually, now that I think about it, I've felt that the streets around campus should really be treated as shared space, since there's a high proportion of pedestrian, bike, and other traffic (rollerbladers, skateboarders, mopeds, wheelchairs if you want to categorize them separately). The pre-stoplight configuration behaved a lot like shared space, with pedestrians often the dominant users. The unusual intersection layout helped that somewhat, but it was never really designed with the mix of uses in mind.

Absolutely, it did. I never once had a problem as a pedestrian or bicycler in the area because cars all moved at 10-15 mph between the Washington Ave bridge and University (and the western stretch of Pillsbury).

[exiled_antipodean]

Yeah, having seen the way they do roundabouts in many US setting I understand that. But a well-marked crossing at the exit/entrance to the roundabout works well for both traffic flow and pedestrians. Minnehaha Park is a good local example.

[orangevening]

Yeah, having seen the way they do roundabouts in many US setting I understand that. But a well-marked crossing at the exit/entrance to the roundabout works well for both traffic flow and pedestrians. Minnehaha Park is a good local example.

The Minnehaha roundabout is one the worst places for bikes in the city. Mainly because bikes are obviously the slower vehicle and are supposed to stay on the right in general, but that's the wrong place for them if they are going to the 2nd or 3rd right turn (I hope that made sense). And I hope that doesn't happen here because the U has a ton of bikers and isn't to friendly towards them.

[David Greene]

=actually, now that I think about it, I've felt that the streets around campus should really be treated as shared space, since there's a high proportion of pedestrian, bike, and other traffic (rollerbladers, skateboarders, mopeds, wheelchairs if you want to categorize them separately). The pre-stoplight configuration behaved a lot like shared space, with pedestrians often the dominant users. The unusual intersection layout helped that somewhat, but it was never really designed with the mix of uses in mind.

This is my "shortcut" route home when 94 is jammed. It still acts like shared space, even with the signals (which are atrocious, BTW). The U has too many streets running through it. It should be reclaimed for non-motorized transport. We can still allow cars but make it a shared space and give priority to foot and bike traffic.

I went to the University of Notre Dame, where there was one through street on campus that served general traffic in the area. And that was only because the campus expanded beyond its historic boundaries. That one road has now been closed, I'm told.

It's just a completely different feel on a campus with no vehicular traffic except campus police and emergency vehicles. People may call me crazy but I'd love to see University/4th turned into a parkway. Wide sidewalks and boulevards, eliminate a lane of traffic. Maybe a (wait for it) multiway boulevard?

[RailBaronYarr]

University & 4th aren't within the boundaries of campus.. they serve the residential/commercial areas that border it. I'd like to see calming there but closing them down would be a mistake, especially with Washington Ave now being closed to through traffic where it abuts campus on either side. Incidentally, this was the major street that caused issues, in my opinion, for student access/comfort/etc. Campus spread past Washington without removing it as a primary artery into (and through) campus. With the LRT and ped/bike/transit mall, this will be FAR better.

While the U has a few streets in it, I'd hardly call it overly busy or anywhere near auto-dominated. Church cuts off between Northrop and Washington. Pleasant, Harvard, and Pillsbury are the only other streets bisecting campus, and they are all skinny, slow, and low-volume vehicle-wise - mostly for delivery vehicles and campus police. Most people don't park within the EB borders, they park at the garages/lots on the fringes (Riverside, 4th St, University Ave, lots surrounding TCF Stadium, etc). I don't know that there are many places in Minneapolis or St Paul so devoid of cars and full of people. By comparison, UW-Madison (while an awesome location with great sightlines and amenities), is fully integrated in to the urban fabric. Also, keep in mind that the U of M is a FAR more urban campus than Notre Dame. We carry things like light rails, buses, people driving/biking/etc to downtown for work, etc. Notre Dame and South Bend, like many other campuses, are basically college towns that serve different needs and relate to the surrounding context differently.

[David Greene]

University & 4th aren't within the boundaries of campus.. they serve the residential/commercial areas that border it. I'd like to see calming there but closing them down would be a mistake, especially with Washington Ave now being closed to through traffic where it abuts campus on either side. Incidentally, this was the major street that caused issues, in my opinion, for student access/comfort/etc. Campus spread past Washington without removing it as a primary artery into (and through) campus. With the LRT and ped/bike/transit mall, this will be FAR better.

While the U has a few streets in it, I'd hardly call it overly busy or anywhere near auto-dominated. Church cuts off between Northrop and Washington. Pleasant, Harvard, and Pillsbury are the only other streets bisecting campus, and they are all skinny, slow, and low-volume vehicle-wise - mostly for delivery vehicles and campus police. Most people don't park within the EB borders, they park at the garages/lots on the fringes (Riverside, 4th St, University Ave, lots surrounding TCF Stadium, etc). I don't know that there are many places in Minneapolis or St Paul so devoid of cars and full of people. By comparison, UW-Madison (while an awesome location with great sightlines and amenities), is fully integrated in to the urban fabric. Also, keep in mind that the U of M is a FAR more urban campus than Notre Dame. We carry things like light rails, buses, people driving/biking/etc to downtown for work, etc. Notre Dame and South Bend, like many other campuses, are basically college towns that serve different needs and relate to the surrounding context differently.

I know University doesn't run through campus but students live right there. There's little off-campus housing at Notre Dame. Almost everyone lives in the dorms on campus. I was looking at student housing/Dinkytown as basically an extension of the campus because that's how it effectively acts.

I'm not advocating closing the streets but making them much more pleasant, green and pedestrian friendly. Hence the parkway concept. Something along the lines of Summit Ave. or King's Highway would be nice. Imagine the block between 4th & University as being the median.

And though the bisecting streets might be narrow, there is really a different feel than in a fully separated campus. And sure, Notre Dame is physically separated from South Bend. It technically isn't even *in* South Bend. South Bend really isn't a college town at all because it is so separated from campus. The joke used to be that there's plenty to do in South Bend. For example, you can go to Chicago. But really, South Bend is a pretty interesting place once you get past the rust belt aspects of it.

All I know is that when I walk around the U campus I feel "off." It doesn't feel like a connected, integrated place. Even UW Madison somehow has a more integrated feel to it. Maybe it's not the streets but something else. Michigan has the same problem, BTW and Ann Arbor *is* very much a college town. I spent seven years at UM and the place doesn't feel like a campus so much but rather a collection of job training centers.

[RailBaronYarr]

I guess I'll just have to disagree with you. Other than the East Bank/West Bank/St Paul divide (which is, I assume, not what you're talking about), the East Bank campus feels very connected to me. It's obvious where the old section is, where the U expanded with the Mall, and stuff since then expanding along Washington. Northrop and Coffman perfectly frame the Mall area as a great sense of place, and walking through it you see to the left/right connections to the other areas (the concentration of engineering buildings east of Church, etc). My only complaint about the layout of the U is the location of the majority of student dorms on the Superblock not being integral to the major portion of undergrad buildings. It is disconnected from campus by the medical center (something most fr/sophs wouldn't use), and the Washington Ave ramp. Comstock & Sanford feel much more 'integral.'

Either way, I think this roundabout test will pass, especially if there are some decent street markings to support it.

[orangevening]

There is no streets in the city that need a proper cycle track more than University and 4th. Bikers have to fight buses on University and the bike lane disappears on 4th for 2 blocks in Dinkytown because the business don't want to lose on-street parking- which is understandable. At the same time Bike-Walk Twin Cites count of bikes on intersections and University and 15th had like 15,000- which dwarfed anyway else in the city. Seeing that a biker got hit and killed there a few years ago and the city/ University did do *some* improvements there- it's still just paint on the ground, which will never stop a car.