Rush Line Corridor BRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 419
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » November 5th, 2014, 5:57 am

Gosh, the suggested route of Kellogg, Mounds Blvd, and 7th would involve some sharp turns - particularly around Metro State.
Sharp, but not insurmountable. They're no worse than the Blue Line turn at MOA, or the Green Line turn at 12th and Cedar.

I looked at Payne Ave, but there's no good way to get it from Payne to Union Depot...the streets and corners at 4th/Wall and 4th/Broadway are just too narrow and too tight. The other alternative would be to split it off the Kellogg Bridge on top of the rail tracks, cross under 94, then go into a tunnel under 7th/Payne, coming back up to Payne. It's doable if the goal is to serve Payne vice East 7th, but it would be a lot more expensive plus the tunnel portal on Payne would close off at least 2 (probably 3) of the intersections along Payne. I just think there's more bang-for-the-buck serving Metro State and the commercial node at 7th/Arcade than there is serving Payne.

Of course, this is all moot given the likely choice of BRT over LRT, as non-articulated buses would have an easier time navigating the corners and wouldn't necessarily need dedicated lanes. But for a rail connection, I just don't see Payne as a viable option.

Vagueperson
Landmark Center
Posts: 279
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 7:13 am
Location: Payne-Phalen, St. Paul

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Vagueperson » November 5th, 2014, 8:37 pm

That's interesting. For some reason, I've only heard the BRT option as on 35E and the city route as LRT. Maybe it's only my assumption that leads to this perception.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7928
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » November 6th, 2014, 9:21 am

It's too bad that Gateway and Rush Corridors can't interline to roughly arcade, assuming they will both be BRT and then assuming they will both have substandard frequency (Red Line is 30 minute even during peak, remember). If we are planning awful BRT service to the suburbs and pretending it will do the same thing as LRT for urban station areas, we're fooling ourselves. But if these two services shared a section through the near east side, doubling the frequency to downtown, it would be much better. As it stands I have no idea why they are planning Gateway on Hudson Rd rather than through actual neighborhood nodes. At least this Rush Corridor has more potential to serve neighborhoods on its way to the park & rides.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2290
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby EOst » November 6th, 2014, 12:09 pm

mattaudio wrote:(Red Line is 30 minute even during peak, remember).
No disagreement about the turd-ness of the Red Line, but isn't it every 15 minutes on weekdays? http://www.metrotransit.org/route/903

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 419
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » November 6th, 2014, 12:41 pm

From what I recall, there's really not a whole lot along East 7th between Arcade and White Bear. So aside from missing the East 7th/Arcade node, a routing along Hudson Rd isn't missing much plus is more direct. Those East End neighborhoods extend all the way down to 94, so you'd still be catching some neighborhood even with a Hudson Rd routing.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7928
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » November 6th, 2014, 12:51 pm

EOst wrote:
mattaudio wrote:(Red Line is 30 minute even during peak, remember).
No disagreement about the turd-ness of the Red Line, but isn't it every 15 minutes on weekdays? http://www.metrotransit.org/route/903
Only until 7 PM

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6194
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » November 6th, 2014, 12:53 pm

Vagueperson wrote:That's interesting. For some reason, I've only heard the BRT option as on 35E and the city route as LRT. Maybe it's only my assumption that leads to this perception.
I'm pretty sure that is the prevailing idea here, though they will study the "universe of alternatives". For the money, and for the transit market they're trying to serve here, Freeway BRT on 35E + arterial BRT on 7th>Arcade>Maryland>White Bear is not a bad combination at all.

In fact, since Ramsey County/St. Paul killed the B-Line aBRT on West 7th (thereby delaying an aBRT extension to east 7th), Metro Transit is now planning to extend the Route 54 to East 7th. It's in the draft SIP and rated "high". I don't think it would extend to Maplewood Mall right away, but it would start to build demand for limited stop service in the inner corridor.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2290
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby EOst » November 6th, 2014, 2:39 pm

mattaudio wrote:
EOst wrote:
mattaudio wrote:(Red Line is 30 minute even during peak, remember).
No disagreement about the turd-ness of the Red Line, but isn't it every 15 minutes on weekdays? http://www.metrotransit.org/route/903
Only until 7 PM
Right. I'm sure they could extend the higher frequency easily enough if there were (any, at all) demand, though. Given these lines will hopefully have higher ridership, at least in the Ramsey County parts, they have a good chance of warranting higher frequency.

Vagueperson
Landmark Center
Posts: 279
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 7:13 am
Location: Payne-Phalen, St. Paul

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Vagueperson » November 6th, 2014, 8:06 pm

froggie wrote:From what I recall, there's really not a whole lot along East 7th between Arcade and White Bear. So aside from missing the East 7th/Arcade node, a routing along Hudson Rd isn't missing much plus is more direct. Those East End neighborhoods extend all the way down to 94, so you'd still be catching some neighborhood even with a Hudson Rd routing.
While it's true that East 7th street is pretty absent of commercial spaces and density soon after Arcade, the Hudson road choice limits its potential development to only the north side of the line. To the south is the highway, and houses or businesses on the other side are just too far to benefit much. It's like a knight on the edge of a chess board rather than in the center.

Regarding the Rush Line:
I understand that Metro State is a big place to miss, but how about a Rush LRT leaving the Green Line and following Kittson and running parallel west of the freight line, under Lafayette, and then bridging over to meet Phalen Blvd. This would not require any tunneling. Or maybe take advantage of the empty Rivoli area before meeting up with Phalen Blvd again. They intend to build a lot of new houses there, but it would be advantageous to them to make it true TOD.

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 419
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » November 7th, 2014, 9:28 am

While it's true that East 7th street is pretty absent of commercial spaces and density soon after Arcade, the Hudson road choice limits its potential development to only the north side of the line. To the south is the highway, and houses or businesses on the other side are just too far to benefit much. It's like a knight on the edge of a chess board rather than in the center.
The Hudson Rd routing is mitigable, however. One of the proposed stations (Earl St) sits right at an overpass over I-94. Two others (White Bear Ave and Sun Ray) could easily include bike/ped bridges over I-94 to connect to the south side.

The problem with East 7th isn't just the lack of commercial nodes. Much of the street (plus three blocks of White Bear Ave) simply lack the right-of-way width. It's a similar situation to Penn Ave with the Bottineau Line...where there isn't enough existing right-of-way to run LRT, 1 lane in each direction, plus have room for sidewalks and stations.

At an absolute minimum, you need 46ft curb-to-curb to fit 1 travel lane each way plus the LRT...of note: Norfolk, VA's line is roughly 48ft for this, while the Green Line equivalent is 51ft. Including space for a station similar to the Green Line (single-directon on one side), you'd need 61ft. For a bi-directional in-the-median station (similar to a few along Norfolk's line) requires 65ft. Including space for a station AND a left turn lane (again similar to the Green Line) requires 72ft. These are just curb-to-curb widths...they do not include sidewalks or boulevards/planters.

There are several blocks of East 7th (especially near Johnson Pkwy), plus the first 3 blocks of White Bear Ave to the south of East 7th, where the entire right-of-way (sidewalk edge to sidewalk edge) is 60ft or less. Most of East 7th between Johnson Pkwy and White Bear Ave is a little better....66ft ROW. But you still wouldn't have room for stations without buying additional right-of-way and likely tearing down some buildings.

It's a similar issue to when Penn Ave was considered for the Bottineau line...there just isn't enough right-of-way width. The options there basically because converting Penn Ave to one-way operation or buying out one side of the street. I don't think either of those options are viable for East 7th. And they definitely won't work for White Bear Ave, which sees volumes higher than most of University Ave.
I understand that Metro State is a big place to miss, but how about a Rush LRT leaving the Green Line and following Kittson and running parallel west of the freight line, under Lafayette, and then bridging over to meet Phalen Blvd. This would not require any tunneling. Or maybe take advantage of the empty Rivoli area before meeting up with Phalen Blvd again. They intend to build a lot of new houses there, but it would be advantageous to them to make it true TOD.
Might be doable, though it would require either one really long bridge or two bridges between Lafayette and Phalen in order to clear the freight rail lines converging in the area. And fitting a station under East 7th might be tricky. But IMO it doesn't have nearly the draw that a line hitting both Metro State and East 7th/Arcade would have. A direct station at Metro State would easily induce conversion of almost an entire city block currently dedicated to parking (bounded by 6th, 7th, Maria, and Bates).

Vagueperson
Landmark Center
Posts: 279
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 7:13 am
Location: Payne-Phalen, St. Paul

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Vagueperson » November 7th, 2014, 7:39 pm

Induce conversion? It's already in the process of converting. You should drive by and see what they've done. Or ride by, if it's not too far.

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 419
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » November 8th, 2014, 6:33 am

It's a bit far. I wound up retiring to Vermont. Didn't really get into St. Paul when I briefly made it home last month.

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 419
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » November 10th, 2014, 7:29 am

A theoretical Rush Line LRT up to White Bear Lake:

Image

User avatar
woofner
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1327
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:04 am

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby woofner » November 10th, 2014, 9:16 am

I'd say it would be preferable to get it closer to the Maplewood Mall. There is a greater concentration of uses there, and probably greater redevelopment potential given the wetlands at the 61/Beam intersection. There is enough ROW on White Bear for it to follow that all the way to White Bear Lake (though getting it back to 61 might be tricky), or it could turn back to the west at Cedar or County F.
"Who rescued whom!"

bptenor
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 142
Joined: November 11th, 2012, 9:28 pm

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby bptenor » November 10th, 2014, 1:53 pm

It could turn east at Beam and then north on Southlawn and back west along County Rd D back to the trail ROW. I used to live a block from here and there is no reason for the Beam station to be next to a Costco, Kohlman Creek, and a new CarMax.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6194
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » November 10th, 2014, 2:26 pm

Serving the brand new 1,000 space P&R at Maplewood Mall is probably mandatory for this line. Even if it precludes going to White Bear Lake. All things considered, stopping this line at the P&R is not a terrible thing. Downtown White Bear Lake really isn't that far away, and would still be well served by the existence of the P&R, as well as a future local bus route to serve the areas north of the P&R. Building LRT any further than the mall seems like a real stretch in the first place. With the amount of money saved by stopping at the Mall/P&R, you could probably buy decades of local bus service AND BRT on 35E.

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 419
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » November 10th, 2014, 8:28 pm

In light of what Woofner posted, one alternative to this would be to have it hit Maplewood Mall. It could then use White Bear Ave all the way north to 61 in order to hit White Bear Lake. Most of White Bear Ave north of I-694 carries less than 10K ADT so it would be an excellent candidate for a road diet...and 2 of those 4 lanes could easily become dedicated transit lanes. I'll look into this.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6194
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » November 10th, 2014, 8:38 pm

If Best Buy hadn't moved their store to it's current location, my preferred alignment to serve both the P&R and the "Mall North" area would have been to via Beam Ave and Southlawn, crossing 694 on a new bridge there, then heading back for the RR corridor north of 694. That would serve a lot of jobs in the area. Something very similar could still be done, but none as easy as a straight shot up the middle of Southlawn.

That said, I can't stress enough how much I really believe anything past the mall P&R is a big reach and waste of money that would be better spent on other things. Perhaps the extension to WBL can be thought of as Phase 2.

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1350
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tcmetro » November 10th, 2014, 9:59 pm

Here's something I threw together quickly. I used froggie's idea of sending the train up E 7th as opposed to the Bruce Vento corridor in inner St Paul, then up Bruce Vento to Gateway Trail to White Bear Ave to serve Maplewood Mall, then back to the rail corridor up to WBL.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... GwsKH5jUGY

stp1980
Metrodome
Posts: 78
Joined: June 29th, 2012, 8:05 am

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby stp1980 » November 11th, 2014, 8:54 am

Terminating the line at Maplewood Mall might not be a bad idea. You would have this line capped by DT St. Paul and the hospital and the mall at the other end. I wonder if it would be possible to run it up Payne, cross over to Arcade/61, North Side of Beam Ave by the hospital, transit center. You could also have the extension option to run it through the out lots on the mall beyond the transit center onto White Bear Ave and then up to DT WBL.


Return to “Transportation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests