Purple Line BRT (Rush Line Corridor)

[mattaudio]

Too bad Robert Street Station isn't a center island platform... I'm now thinking it would be ideal for this to approach St. Paul from the north, cutting west across 35E near University then connecting inline to the existing tracks to SPUD.
Advantages:
- Likely less new track through tricky areas
- Cross-platform transfer to Green Line for Midway/Minneapolis-bound riders, without the 8 minutes of Downtown St. Paul to go through
- If this ever did through-route with Riverview, it could turn around past SPUD onto the railroad viaduct and then cruise past the riverfront. Yes, this would mean this would double back west five blocks that were already covered going east from St. Paul Central Station... but it could fly along the railroad viaduct.
- This approach might also make Riverview LRT more favorable since it could skip having to build a tough new routing through Downtown and west to Smith/St. Clair. Though that's likely where a large part of Riverview ridership is, and would still need a streetcar or ABRT (which could then meet up with Riverview LRT at Randolph, before heading west towards Mac-Groveland and Highland Park (a route 74 replacement).

[Silophant]

It would be silly if both Rush and Riverview (assuming LRT) fed into the Green Line, terminating into the Lowertown OMF, instead of interlining, considering how obviously beneficial it would be to do so. If the city tries to push that decision I'm going to raise a ruckus.

I doubt they could, really. I'd imagine that DT St. Paul would have the same "one train every five minutes" limitation DT Minneapolis has, so assuming that the Green Line keeps its 10 minute frequency, that would limit Rush and Riverview to 20 minute frequencies, and in that case, why build them as LRT at all?

[mattaudio]

so assuming that the Green Line keeps its 10 minute frequency, that would limit Rush and Riverview to 20 minute frequencies, and in that case, why build them as LRT at all?

Which is why Rush and Riverview need to be interlined end to end as a single service if they want to share any of the Green Line right of way downtown. This would allow them to operate Green and Purple? at 10 minute headways.

[Zaptons67]

Clearly it would not be "silly" to feed both Rush and Riverview into the green line IF Riverview fed into the Capital segment and Rush fed into the Union Depot segment, as it could travel down Price St. Which would mean that only the Green line would terminate at SPUD. Rush/Riverview would then be one continuous line. Yes, highly realistic given that both corridors most likely won't both be LRT, and St. Paul most likely won't want to build more LRT stations near downtown.

[Vagueperson]

"Too bad Robert Street Station isn't a center island platform... I'm now thinking it would be ideal for this to approach St. Paul from the north, cutting west across 35E near University then connecting inline to the existing tracks to SPUD."

Is there any conceivable way to make the connection to the tracks on Robert? I like this idea, though it doesn't get quite as close to Regions. I don't think the planners think it's possible to make the turn from University onto Robert.

[Tiller]

http://www.lillienews.com/articles/2016 ... t-corridor

[Vagueperson]

I recently wrote them to ask if the off-street bike path on Phalen Blvd would be maintained between Payne and Cayuga if LRT were to be built on that stretch, but I haven't heard back yet. It appears there would be problems, especially under the Edgerton Street Bridge: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9655583 ... 312!8i6656

Perhaps they would just keep it at as an in-street bike lane. There's room on the south side of the boulevard, but my understanding is this would be on the north side, which makes more sense for the most part.

[Tiller]

From that link:

While drafting possible routes, White Bear and Maryland avenues were added as possible places for routes in the corridor due to community feedback received during the summer and fall of 2015.

Now that those two thoroughfares have been added as options, the Rush Line Corridor project has scheduled a community meeting for Tuesday, April 19, from 5 to 7 p.m. at the Hayden Heights Library, 1456 White Bear Ave.

The meeting will be informal and community members will be able to drop by at any point to speak with project staff.

However, Gitzlaff said said the project is taking more time in the tier one stage to engage with the communities in targeted engagements, like the April 19 meeting.

By this summer, the plan is to do an analysis of ridership and cost and to have a more formal open house with simplified plans at the end of the summer.

Gitzlaff said the hope is to have the route, stations, and type of vehicle chosen by the end of this year.

Travel Time estimates (a little spammy, but it's ok, they're maps, and everybody loves maps):




The extra 10 minutes for running Light Rail along WBA is totes worth it.

[RailBaronYarr]

The extra 10 minutes for running Light Rail along WBA is totes worth it.

The real question: is dedicated right of way worth it? Comparing arterial BRT to dedicated BRT/LRT on the closest routes (both using their respective sub-option A, the BRT/LRT taking Phalen/W 7th into downtown) yields 58 vs 48 minutes.

[twincitizen]

Perhaps it is still too early in the process to make this move, but I really think they should trim this line to the Maplewood Mall P&R and combine it with Riverview, moving a single, unified project ahead with the feds. An extension to White Bear Lake should always be on the table for the future, but as-is I think it just bogs the whole project down. Local buses (and private cars and bikes) can get people from WBL to the 1000-space Maplewood Mall P&R.

I think the above scenario is also the only way you wind up with rail service in this corridor. Continuing to plan Rush Line as a separate project from Riverview will result in a bus, because the ridership numbers in this corridor are far too low on its own.

[EOst]

Doesn't look like a Swede Hollow routing would be worth the trouble.

[mattaudio]

I really think they should trim this line to the Maplewood Mall P&R and combine it with Riverview, moving a single, unified project ahead with the feds.

Makes sense to me, and then Hwy 36 BRT could go to Maplewood Mall before turning north to WBL.

[mamundsen]

Perhaps it is still too early in the process to make this move, but I really think they should trim this line to the Maplewood Mall P&R and combine it with Riverview, moving a single, unified project ahead with the feds. An extension to White Bear Lake should always be on the table for the future, but as-is I think it just bogs the whole project down. Local buses (and private cars and bikes) can get people from WBL to the 1000-space Maplewood Mall P&R.

I think the above scenario is also the only way you wind up with rail service in this corridor. Continuing to plan Rush Line as a separate project from Riverview will result in a bus, because the ridership numbers in this corridor are far too low on its own.

I'm very interested in this and Riverview Project. I can not agree more with combining them into one line! I've been looking and haven't seen info on either project, have they determined sites for future developments? Especially if LRT is chosen I feel like development should be considered along with the route.

I showed the maps and explained where in the process the planning is to my wife yesterday because we will soon be moving out to WBL (neighborhood near WBL and Cty E). Her response when she saw that it would go to Downtown St Paul and take 40+ mins... "When would we ever use this?" I work in Minneapolis and she works in Roseville. I frequently use transit to Twins games. She finally thought it could be worth while if combined with Riverview, creating the main triangle with three extensions to suburbs (EP, WBL, and NW burbs).

[twincitizen]

This is interesting...the main express bus between downtown WBL (and Maplewood Mall P&R) and downtown St. Paul makes just 4 measly runs per peak period. And it takes ~50 minutes between WBL and 6th/Cedar in St. Paul.

http://www.metrotransit.org/Route/265

There is no direct express service between WBL and Minneapolis. One would have to hop on the 265 to Maplewood P&R and transfer to the 270 to downtown Minneapolis. That route has much, much higher ridership than the 265 and makes ~18 runs per peak period (not including additional short line trips beginning at 61 & Cty Rd C).

You can read between the lines, but I think it is going to be extremely difficult to justify any rail service in this corridor. The ridership just isn't there. I'm extremely skeptical that rail can get built in this corridor at all, and if it does it will have to be part of Riverview. And cut far short of WBL...I'm a bit skeptical you can even justify rail to Maplewood Mall.

[RailBaronYarr]

St Paul vs Minneapolis politics aside, I think it's very reasonable to make the case that an aBRT line from MOA to WBL is a pretty good investment. Downtown businesses would hate the idea of not having rail to MSP like Minneapolis has, but from a system perspective this is a far better use of money. None of the challenges of interlining rail through downtown St Paul or figuring out a river crossing at 1/10th the budget, with the only tradeoffs being slightly slower travel times and reduced capacity (which, it wouldn't be terrible to run a bus every 5 minutes rather than a 2-car trainset every 10). I'll admit a 25 mile bus route is definitely pushing it, though.

[Tiller]

A Swede Hollow routing definitely doesn't make sense for this line. The neighborhood opposition and decline in ridership 'probably' aren't worth the benefit of slightly decreased travel time. (though we haven't seen ridership and cost estimates yet).

I'm repeating myself a bit here, but hopefully the planners/engineers can reasonably carve a lot Dedicated ROW out of WBA. Froggie has mentioned a few times that it would be easy to do so north of 694, but unless it's aBRT it's not going there, and the RR ROW would have a dedicated ROW anyways. Between 694 and Larpentuer ave there's still a ? whether or not dedicated lanes would work out, and if so where (depending on what tradeoffs are deemed acceptable). South of Larpentuer you'd need to take houses or put rails in the outer lanes for a dedicated ROW, which won't happen.

As far as throwing rail out the window with the bathwater from WBL, it is still early for that. Keep in mind that ridership predictions are long-term, and the viability threshold for Light rail is decently lower than our two lines thus far have provided.

Furthermore, ridership and transit-quality is a chicken-and-egg problem. There's a reason for the whole "regional equity" argument beyond sour grapes. I'm in the southern portion of the corridor, in St Paul, and yet buses only come along WBA every half hour, at best. Last time I needed to take the bus, I saw it drive past my stop when I was a block away, so I turned around and went back home to do something else while waiting for the next one.

Providing *good* transit service will provide a healthy boost in ridership, in addition to the two previous factors I mentioned. A very large majority of people in this area wouldn't be able to tell you where the buses went and when, because they've never taken them, and the signs only read "Bus" until very recently. Then there are the sub-routes, which make the system even less-friendly to newcomers. The underinvestment has been long-standing and systemic, and I'm sure part of the reason is that E St Paul isn't very white.

I'm obviously still of the opinion that this should be light rail to WBL, and additionally that a future Hwy 36 BRT line should go to North St Paul after the Maplewood mall (ending at a park and ride on Hadley ave, if I know our transit planning process well enough). Eventually it should be an interurban service to Stillwater, and even another light rail line. Minneapolis, Roseville, and Maplewood/NSP (and maybe Stillwater) are large enough activity nodes to justify good transit service.

We'll see how things go when the cost and ridership estimates come out.

[mamundsen]

Anyone going to the meeting Tuesday (4/19)?

[Tiller]

I'll be there tonight.

[DanPatchToget]

Went to the meeting as well. I feel it's likely that dedicated BRT or LRT on White Bear Avenue won't go through simply because businesses and homeowners wouldn't want White Bear Avenue widened, and certainly wouldn't want a lane taken out. My hope is that, for now, arterial BRT is chosen to White Bear Lake via White Bear Avenue because the ridership is definitely there and would directly benefit areas that are currently a little rough (Payne-Phalen area). In the long term I'd like to see regional rail on the county owned right-of-way to Forest Lake, and perhaps even to Hinckley.

I asked if the Riverview Corridor and Rush Line will be a single route, and I was told that the projects are independent of each other so it's not guaranteed they'll have the same mode, but if they do then it's likely it'll be a "pendulum route" from MOA, through St. Paul, to White Bear Lake.

Also, not sure how credible bus drivers are, but on the Route 64 bus I heard that they're extending Route 54 to Maplewood Mall this fall. I know this was in Metro Transit's Service Improvement Plan, and it looks like it might be happening.

[grant1simons2]

I feel it's likely that dedicated BRT or LRT on White Bear Avenue won't go through simply because businesses and homeowners wouldn't want White Bear Avenue widened

Is there a plan for it to be widened if they wanted those options on it?