Rush Line Corridor BRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
alexschief
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby alexschief » July 3rd, 2018, 11:35 pm

It’s usually a mistake to add little detours and digressions to routes. They serve people getting on and off at that digression better, but they frustrate and delay people traveling through that point.

The 21 bus makes a probably defensible detour onto University to hit the Green Line LRT station, and it feels like it takes absolutely forever if you’re trying to ride it through.

The first two options are far better.

Vagueperson
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Vagueperson » July 4th, 2018, 6:53 am

Yeah, it really depends on your perspective. The first two options would certainly be far faster, but I just can't imagine having a major transit stop in the middle of the bridge. I also can't see having the 61 / 54 make stops there just for transfers - that would be ridiculous.

EOst
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby EOst » July 4th, 2018, 12:21 pm

How much extra time could the "detour" possibly take? #1 is around 1900 ft, #4 (depending on the routing) is ~2400 ft. Even accounting for delay at the turns (and maybe at Arcade as well) it's hard to imagine that extra 2-3 minutes being a big deal.

tmart
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby tmart » July 4th, 2018, 3:39 pm

It's death by a thousand cuts. First we say, "we won't spend the money for LRT; we'll just build a bus in an LRT-like configuration." Then it's "well, since it's a bus, we can just go mixed-traffic for the trickiest spots to acquire right-of-way." Then it's "as long as we're going mixed traffic, let's make a little detour to stop at a strip mall; three stoplights can't ruin the whole project." If the goal is to give the route rapid transit features--more reliable, less dependent on traffic conditions, faster, and simpler to understand than our typical serpentine local bus routes--this is not the way to do it.

DanPatchToget
Rice Park
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby DanPatchToget » July 5th, 2018, 6:35 am

BRT creep is real. We use the term BRT quite loosely in the Twin Cities.

Not that I’m saying this isn’t BRT, but it can be a slippery slope with these little detours.

Vagueperson
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Vagueperson » July 5th, 2018, 7:54 am

We weren't given time estimates for any of these options.

The hope is that Seeger Square and surrounding properties won't remain a strip mall or empty space, but I admit this is merely a hope. It's also criteria around which the discussion was had.

Tcmetro
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Tcmetro » July 29th, 2018, 7:34 am

The July 26 PAC meeting presentation has been posted. Most interestingly;

- The 2nd & Clark location seems to be the preferred White Bear Lake stop
- Kowalski's is supportive of a transit-orientated redevelopment at the Marina Triangle stop.
- A Buerkle Road stop is being considered.
- Maplewood Mall area routing may be modified so that the St. John's Hospital stop can be located on Hazelwood St instead of Beam Ave.
- Option C for Arcade St seems to be more preferred. This would have the buses use Neid Lane to Arcade St, then a busway connection at the bridge over Phalen Blvd to avoid vertical circulation.
- At the 14th/Robert - Green Line connection, the 14th St stops are preferred.

https://www.ramseycounty.us/sites/defau ... tation.pdf

A number of station area planning presentations have been posted as well:

https://www.ramseycounty.us/residents/r ... a-planning

Vagueperson
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Vagueperson » August 18th, 2018, 7:25 am

Current thinking is that Phalen Village stop will be at Maryland just east of Johnson in line with the Ramsey County right of way. However, engineers are considering an additional stop between Hmong Village and the Duluth Case Recreation Center. They are also considering a bridge over Johnson Parkway to avoid the Johnson/Phalen intersection.

The possible bridge on the east side of the Arcade St bridge to get the bus elevated to the higher level would not have bike/ped access, bike trail just continuing west below the Arcade bridge as it currently does. This seems like a lost opportunity to get people up to Seeger Square without having to travel over to Heritage Park and up Neid Lane.

Some small sections of Phalen Blvd will probably have buses in a car lane they call a BAT lane (buses and turning vehicles). Other sections will have additional roadway constructed. The Ramsey County right of way ends west of Neid Lane, so the county has to be creative in taking space from the existing roadway.

mamundsen
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby mamundsen » September 1st, 2018, 9:44 am

Article about the 3 stops in WBL

http://www.presspubs.com/white_bear/new ... 11e8-8f32-

My observations:
-calling only the downtown stop a “Station” and the others “are really just platforms” it’s worded in a way that feels negative.
- Downtown Station would include a 280 stall parking ramp!?!? No! To me this is a bad idea. No wonder these projects are ridiculously expensive.

The more I am thinking about BRT, it feels like there should be a regular service bus first, that performs well and is then is upgraded to BRT. What we are doing with the aBRT routes. I fear the gold line and rush line are going to end up like the Red Line.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby DanPatchToget » September 1st, 2018, 12:56 pm

I can't read the article because of Europe's stupid privacy policies, but here's what I think:
They definitely do not need a park & ride ramp. There is plenty of parking in the suburbs. Encourage people to go to stations by other modes of travel. And this is a downtown district station, that is the worst place to build a parking ramp whether it be shared use or park & ride only.

The problem with starting it as a regular bus route is that it would be difficult to encourage people to use it, so it may take decades before it finally reaches enough ridership for BRT. Building it as BRT now will, in theory, bring in the ridership right away instead of taking decades. The problem with the Red Line is that it isn't BRT (20 minute headways at most), it operates on a valley of asphalt (Highway 77/Cedar Avenue), there are only 5 stations, and its a suburb-to-suburb route. I think the Orange Line, Rush Line, and Gold Line have a much better chance at succeeding, or if they don't reach ridership projections they'll be very close to meeting projections.

EOst
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby EOst » September 1st, 2018, 5:54 pm

I think the Red Line would look much less like a failure if it went through to downtown Minneapolis. Especially along Cedar Ave, with a dedicated busway along most of the route.

Oreos&Milk
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Oreos&Milk » September 2nd, 2018, 12:39 pm

Yea, I guess when you think about it.. those park and rides should be selling passes to those parking spaces instead of giving them out for free. Say 30 bucks a month (1 buck a day) and then 2 bucks for a single day pass. Then say 220 are fully rented thats 6,600 revenue a month 79,200 a year and 1,584,000 in 20 years.

Which would really help cover the costs of the ramp, maintenance such as repairs, lighting, plowing, ect ect. As long as they are NOT paying an express rate it still be really affordable. Parking isn't free, and having them help cover a portion of the cost I think seems only fair.

maybe even dropping the charge down to a buck a weekday so 20 bucks a month. I mean if people really prefer to wait in traffic and go downtown themselves to pay 200-300 a month for a parking space then by all means. I think we gotta stop trying to market to people to park and ride as if were begging them to, instead common sense and better pricing that is more fare.

QuietBlue
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby QuietBlue » September 4th, 2018, 8:43 am

I think successfully implementing such a program would be harder than it initially appears. Besides the cost of setting up and running it, someone would need to check for compliance (I'm assuming cars would have a sticker, hang tag, etc). For the day passes, there would need to be a way to purchase them onsite. And would the charge be for anyone using the lot, no matter which bus they were taking? Then there's the fact that many of these sites are already near other places people may park at instead, which then creates an issue for nearby property owners when they need to monitor who's using it. Finally, people may just choose to drive a ways further to, say, the Blue Line and park there, which is just shifting the cost around.

Also, despite the fact that it will still be less expensive than parking downtown, it would likely still push some people into driving and parking downtown anyway. It's not always a question of what's cheapest; commuters consider a range of factors and some may decide that the sacrifices of taking a bus (less flexibility, etc) are not as mitigated when it costs more to take it.

Then there's the long-term political and economic benefit of getting more people using transit and comfortable with it, even if it costs some more money in the short term.

mamundsen
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby mamundsen » September 27th, 2018, 9:17 pm

Rush Line sent out an update tonight.
Modified station plans and routing to be reviewed

At its regularly scheduled meeting earlier today, the Policy Advisory Committee of the Rush Line Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) Project confirmed the project’s recommended elements – including station locations and routing changes – for study in the environmental assessment phase of the project.

The study will now include several recent, publicly-driven modifications to project plans, including:

Adding an additional station at Buerkle Road (White Bear Lake) – to improve access to more than 3,000 jobs in this area.

Modifying routing to St. John’s Hospital and Maplewood Mall Transit Center – to improve user access to these locations.

Modifying the location of the Arcade Street and Maryland Avenue stations and adding an additional station at Cook Street – to improve access in East Side Saint Paul neighborhoods.

Identifying a potential location for the downtown White Bear Lake station – further evaluation and engagement will be done to ensure the station addresses transit user needs and fits within the downtown's character.

Modifying routing in downtown Saint Paul – to improve efficiency of service.
Link below is an interactive map.

http://links.govdelivery.com/track?type ... ovdelivery

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Tiller
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Tiller » September 28th, 2018, 12:04 am

Yay for the potential "Cook Avenue" station for the Hmong Village shopping center!

Image

Vagueperson
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Vagueperson » September 30th, 2018, 7:40 am

I was pretty disappointed with the Maryland Avenue station placement, but then they decided to add the Cook Ave station, which is close not only to the Hmong Village shopping center, but also Baldinger Bakery, Duluth Case Rec Center, and some apartment buildings west of Phalen Blvd. I was quite surprised they decided to add another stop like that.

They are also considering a bridge over Johnson Parkway so the buses don't have to navigate the Johnson/Phalen intersection. Of course, the buses will already be somewhat elevated being on the berm from the railroad right of way east of Johnson Pkwy.

Oreos&Milk
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Oreos&Milk » September 30th, 2018, 10:28 am

A few commments.

First I hope the Hmong station is not being lined up with the Hmong car entrance. A bout a block south there is a perfect space between the Hmong Village and the bakery where they could build a nice little waiting plaza what also matches up with the trail on the other side so a redesigned crosswalk (long term, ok LONG LONG LONG Term crossing tunnel or bridge) would be a great way to connect to the trail across the road which at that point have a another trail that dumps into a parking lot (for now, long term maybe that could also be extended down Lawson Ave. Plus on the east side of such a plaza they could attempt to build a trail that connects closer to Johnson Parkway apartments and the local single family homes too.

I do like the route utilizing the trail much of the way, not sure when they switched that or maybe I always just thought it was going to use the roadway. Either way transit & trail lines running hand and hand are wonderful ways to encourage those seasonal bikers to get into biking more with having other easy dependable ways to get to work when it's -20 below zero and many people may rather taking a warm bus to work.

I really HATE the idea of having two stations right next to each other St. John's and Maplewood Mall are redundant! and will slow seeds down unnecessarily! It's a park and ride LOT not a park and ride ramp, sell that land to Maplewood Mall so they can develop it or find another buyer. Then buy space next to the north parking lot at St. Jon's and build a phased in parking ramp if need be. There are already good trails down Beam Ave. and part of a trail and great space for an extension 2/3 the way up that mega block that could be extended to Hazlewood where the only station could be and extend even westward to the Bruce Vento trail. Maybe even move the station to Kennard, but having two stations this close to each other seems annoying for everybody else using this corridor having to slow down bus service for a minority of people not wanting to walk an extra few feet to get to the mall is ridiculous.

Besides that I'd think they have a well thought out plan and corridor. While I'm not a big fan of the Orange line's double stations around 494 but at least it's in a straight line so no constantly turning bus. Well except above 694 a lot of those stations are intended to spark dense development so I wonder if more of those stops should be phased in (excluding WBL downtown station) instead of built on day one.

Finally, instead of building a park and ride downtown WBL maybe extend the line to Hugo and build a park and ride there? It's a bit more accessible to the freeway from there and encouraging cars to go there instead might help WBL downtown remain pedestrian friendly and have more space for better dense downtown development. I'm not saying it's the best idea and solution, just saying let's talk about it. maybe?

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Tiller
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Tiller » September 30th, 2018, 2:18 pm

To comment on two things:

The "Maplewood Mall" station goes to the transit center and park and ride ramp in the SW corner outlot. It doesn't go directly to the mall, but it is important for transfers to other bus routes (54, 64, 80, 219, 223, express buses) and it does provide access to structured parking.

I think moving the Hmong Village Station a little further south would be helpful (so that it's between baldingers bakery and hmong village), though my list of pros/cons is different.

Cons:
~Depending on which entrance Hmong Village would prefer for people to use, that would be farther away from the primary east entrance(s). It would technically be on the opposite side, so you would have to walk around the entire building (which still looks like a warehouse on the outside).
~if the station is at the driveway, it may be more likely we can get a traffic light of some sort (at minimum it should give reds for pedestrians to cross). If that won't affect the decision to install (or not) at least a pedestrian-only red light, then this won't matter.

Positives:
~Better access to the south HV entrance
~Easier to create pedestrian connections to get across the railroad tracks via Atlantic St and Johnson Pkwy
~Better access to Duluth & Case rec center

Oreos&Milk
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby Oreos&Milk » October 1st, 2018, 1:38 pm

Tiller wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 2:18 pm
To comment on two things:

The "Maplewood Mall" station goes to the transit center and park and ride ramp in the SW corner outlot. It doesn't go directly to the mall, but it is important for transfers to other bus routes (54, 64, 80, 219, 223, express buses) and it does provide access to structured parking.

...
Yes, but there is no reason why they can't do a Nicollet Ave in the Heart of burnsville where they have a Orange line station and then keep the park and ride for all the OTHER buses. But ideally they should move the park and ride lot closer to the hospital and just make it ONE stop in the area. I called it the Mall station as it simply looks to be on mall property where I'm sure they like to build a free standing olive garden or a wedding day jewelry store or something along those lines.

I just keep imagining riding the red line on all the twists and turns around the outlet mall station before the bridge was built and how that really made the entire line slow and not as quick as it is now with at more straight and direct route.

mamundsen
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Re: Rush Line Corridor BRT

Postby mamundsen » October 1st, 2018, 2:55 pm

The Maplewood Mall Transit Station was just built. Also the Maplewood Mall area is doing an area plan to create a vision for increased density and city amenities. If anything, the hospital stop should be removed.


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