Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction / E Line (Uptown to Downtown)

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Hennepin Avenue

Postby FISHMANPET » October 9th, 2013, 3:41 pm

Another reason to eliminate parking during rush hour, increases road throughput! Suck it war on cars!

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Re: Hennepin Avenue

Postby MSPtoMKE » October 10th, 2013, 6:55 pm

I could certainly be making this up, but I could have sworn there were already some peak parking restrictions on Hennepin. Specifically, around Franklin or 24th is were I seem to remember seeing them, in the peak direction.
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Re: Hennepin Avenue

Postby UptownSport » October 11th, 2013, 8:53 am

Yes, and North of Franklin.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue

Postby UptownSport » October 14th, 2013, 12:50 pm

I continue to believe some on UrbanMSP view the issue as a 1:1 trainset that will now have cars zipping up and down Hennepin too, but not stopping.
The actual cars actually have people in them, and those people like to stop at the businesses along Hennepin (perhaps when they're already commuting- It's efficient!) The businesses like those people to stop in. Businesses need to have re-supply, generally not achieved with autos, pedestrians or mass transit- So punishing autos and businesses doubles when goods can't flow.

The ideal system would run grade separate from existing transportation, bicyclists, pedestrians and other mass transit.
This is the norm for both foreign and domestic high density for over 100 years.

We've got a tunnel going thru the woods only a few thousand yards away, so we're getting closer ...

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Re: Hennepin Avenue

Postby talindsay » October 14th, 2013, 4:01 pm

UptownSport wrote:The ideal system would run grade separate from existing transportation, bicyclists, pedestrians and other mass transit.
This is the norm for both foreign and domestic high density for over 100 years.

We've got a tunnel going thru the woods only a few thousand yards away, so we're getting closer ...
I agree with this sentiment, and I think most people here do. Tunnels are being dug less now than they were even twenty years ago almost *everywhere* though - even cities such as Paris, London, and Barcelona are accepting some surface rail for new projects because they don't think they can justify the higher costs for digging a tunnel any more, and so it's hard for Minneapolis to pony up. This, of course, makes the Southwest scenario even more absurd and frustrating, but that's a different topic.

Regarding the argument that surface transit (with or without rails) will disrupt traffic flow too much if it causes parking restrictions though, I think you need to keep in mind that no delivery driver in his right mind would attempt to deliver goods during rush hour on Hennepin as it stands right now; deliveries to restaurants typically happen either before or after the morning rush, not during it, and non-perishable business goods are almost always delivered at night or, in rare cases, in the afternoon before rush hour. You're certainly right that loss of parking at rush hours would likely cost businesses a certain amount of rush-hour business, and so any such plan would need to identify mitigation steps, but it's definitely a concern about private auto traffic and it's impact on the retail side of business, not commercial traffic or deliveries.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Hennepin Avenue

Postby FISHMANPET » October 14th, 2013, 4:06 pm

Also, I don't think that anyone here is going to say that in a vacuum, a tunnel in Kennilworth makes more sense than a tunnel on Hennepin, but these things don't happen in a vacuum. I'm not sure who you're raging against UptownSport, but I don't think they post here.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue

Postby UptownSport » October 15th, 2013, 9:37 am

talindsay wrote:This, of course, makes the Southwest scenario even more absurd and frustrating, but that's a different topic.
We do have one who said Uptown transit is excellent.
Need I quote?
I dont think tunneling through the woods specifically to avoid Uptown / South is a different subject at all. I'm not sure what you would be thinking when you write that.

Again, the idea is to serve people, not move trains.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 23rd, 2014, 9:20 pm

GGW proposes peak hour bus-only lanes in DC, a very similar situation to what we have on Hennepin:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/pos ... th-street/

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby anders » December 6th, 2016, 11:33 pm

EOst wrote:
Sacrelicio wrote:Is this really a common argument? That calming doesn't need to occur because the area is successful already?
I don't think it would be expressed in that way, but sure: "don't fix what isn't broken."
Sort of related: when I was on the ECCO board many years ago, there was a moment that really stuck with me. We were discussing transportation in the area and I was pushing for the board to be more assertive in advocating for LRT or other transit improvements in the area. One of the 'long-time resident' board members, who was (and presumably still is) very active in the organization, pointed out that he had recently taken the 6 downtown and it "worked pretty good" for him. I definitely believe that attitude is common.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby David Greene » December 7th, 2016, 11:59 pm

anders wrote:ne of the 'long-time resident' board members, who was (and presumably still is) very active in the organization, pointed out that he had recently taken the 6 downtown and it "worked pretty good" for him. I definitely believe that attitude is common.
I mean, it does work pretty good. I rarely have a major slowdown from Lake to Franklin, even during rush hour. I can't speak to the bottleneck or downtown since I rarely go that way during peak, but off-peak it seems to work fine.

Sure, a dedicated transit lane would make things a bit zippier, but to me it's really not the highest priority in our system. Getting the 53 to run all day or getting the Midtown line built would have a much bigger impact.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby VAStationDude » December 8th, 2016, 6:37 am

Abrt articulated buses would be a massive improvement and would work better than lrt for more people.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby thatchio » December 10th, 2016, 11:14 am

David, it's been a while since I've taken the 6, but I used to hit huge slowdowns on Hennepin in Downtown near MCTC, the lead up to Franklin, and then parts of Hennepin near 26th and 28th. It was especially bad in rain and snow, as well as nice summer days in the PM peak.

As an aside, I remember a time during a hot summer day around 4:30pm when I just missed the 12 at Dean Parkway and Lake Street so I grabbed the NiceRide and biked around part of Isles and parked it at Chipotle. I was in biz clothes so I didn't bike that fast. I caught up to the 12 with a couple of minutes to spare.

Hennepin, Lake Street, and plenty of other streets around the region could use some focused transit priority efforts at major choke points. That should include leading transit signals at intersections and a few bypass lanes.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby Minneboy » December 10th, 2016, 3:21 pm

thatchio wrote:David, it's been a while since I've taken the 6, but I used to hit huge slowdowns on Hennepin in Downtown near MCTC, the lead up to Franklin, and then parts of Hennepin near 26th and 28th. It was especially bad in rain and snow, as well as nice summer days in the PM peak.

As an aside, I remember a time during a hot summer day around 4:30pm when I just missed the 12 at Dean Parkway and Lake Street so I grabbed the NiceRide and biked around part of Isles and parked it at Chipotle. I was in biz clothes so I didn't bike that fast. I caught up to the 12 with a couple of minutes to spare.

Hennepin, Lake Street, and plenty of other streets around the region could use some focused transit priority efforts at major choke points. That should include leading transit signals at intersections and a few bypass lanes.
When I didn't ride my bike I used to take the bus to downtown where I worked at City Hall and because it took nearly 45 minutes to get back in mid afternoon (1430 hrs) I found that walking home only took me 15 minutes later and it was much more enjoyable and I got my exercise.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby anders » December 11th, 2016, 9:30 am

David Greene wrote:
anders wrote:ne of the 'long-time resident' board members, who was (and presumably still is) very active in the organization, pointed out that he had recently taken the 6 downtown and it "worked pretty good" for him. I definitely believe that attitude is common.
I mean, it does work pretty good. I rarely have a major slowdown from Lake to Franklin, even during rush hour. I can't speak to the bottleneck or downtown since I rarely go that way during peak, but off-peak it seems to work fine.

Sure, a dedicated transit lane would make things a bit zippier, but to me it's really not the highest priority in our system. Getting the 53 to run all day or getting the Midtown line built would have a much bigger impact.
a) Naturally, I have anecdotal evidence to counter your anecdotal evidence. Full buses turning people away, buses bunching, and so on. Improvements to reliability, frequency, comfort, etc. would provide a big benefit to existing riders and presumably attract new riders as well.

b) Why create a false choice between improvements to Hennepin (/Lyndale) bus service and capital or operational investments in the Midtown corridor? Both can and should be addressed quickly and relatively affordably (well, maybe not the streetcar). One aBRT line every few years is pretty pathetic for a thriving city in an industrialized country.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby David Greene » December 11th, 2016, 4:34 pm

thatchio wrote:David, it's been a while since I've taken the 6, but I used to hit huge slowdowns on Hennepin in Downtown near MCTC, the lead up to Franklin, and then parts of Hennepin near 26th and 28th. It was especially bad in rain and snow, as well as nice summer days in the PM peak.
It's definitely bad during snow. Not much to be done about that. Even dedicated lanes would be clogged.

It's good to know about the experience north of Franklin. Like I said, I just don't go there much during peak.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby David Greene » December 11th, 2016, 4:35 pm

anders wrote:b) Why create a false choice between improvements to Hennepin (/Lyndale) bus service and capital or operational investments in the Midtown corridor? Both can and should be addressed quickly and relatively affordably (well, maybe not the streetcar). One aBRT line every few years is pretty pathetic for a thriving city in an industrialized country.
Umm...you saw the election results, right?

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby mattaudio » December 12th, 2016, 9:26 am

Minneapolis and/or Hennepin can fund.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby David Greene » December 12th, 2016, 11:57 am

I think you either underestimate the costs of projects or overestimate sales tax revenue. Plus you're ignoring that federal funding will dry up. Minneapolis is not going to build an LRT on its own. Minneapolis couldn't even fund aBRT on one route, much less two or more.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 12th, 2016, 1:38 pm

I will once again point out that the City of Minneapolis decided to up their street maintenance & reconstruction budget for 2017 and beyond by roughly $20m a year in straight up levy increase. This is on top of the roughly $25m every year we planned to spend in that timeframe, and almost all of that money is for local or residential streets - not even the major corridors that receive funding help from county, state, and federal pots. The City made this change riding the back of the parks levy increase - which took much of the discussion as it was viewed much as much more of an equity and livability issue. Aside from only getting $20m annually vs. the $30m in identified annual gap, the streets portion received very little scrutiny - it was simply assumed that this was a "must-do" to maintain quality of life, etc. And, I'll agree that if we want to maintain 32' curb-to-curb streets with free parking and pavement conditions that allow 25-30mph vehicle traffic, making this funding commitment was a wise financial choice long-term vs. more deferred maintenance that would end up costing more as int he long-run.

But it shows there's ample ability for the city to commit to simply spending more for transportation. If we spent $45-50m a year (what we'll be spending on local streets out of the general fund), imagine what we could build. Imagine if that general spending was bolstered by assessments to property owners to help cover even more funding gaps - the same thing we do for streets and alleys (25% of the cost), and similar to what the City is planning for the Nicollet streetcar. Maybe this funding pot, coupled with depleted federal and state shares, wouldn't be able to build out an LRT system within our borders. But it could certainly build a crapload of aBRT routes.

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Re: Uptown General Topics & Development Map

Postby Sacrelicio » December 12th, 2016, 1:57 pm

Are we already assuming that the state and federal governments will kibosh any public transportation funding? I don't think cities should give up that easily.


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