26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

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26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby PhilmerPhil » November 21st, 2013, 12:28 pm

The protected bike lane on 26th/28th will be from Portland to Hiawatha and will likely have bollards in addition to a painted buffer.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby twincitizen » November 21st, 2013, 12:37 pm

^Not if we kill it so we can convert those streets to two-ways instead.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby MNdible » November 21st, 2013, 1:59 pm

twincitizen wrote:^Not if we kill it so we can convert those streets to two-ways instead.


I believe you mean "those nightmarish freeway death-traps that only help stoopid suburb people".

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby talindsay » November 21st, 2013, 4:29 pm

Convert 26th and 28th to two-ways before the Greenway streetcar is completed and you'll have me annoyed. It's not that I'm in love with either street's interaction with the community around it, but those of us who live at the eastern edge of southeast Minneapolis need *SOME* way to get to Uptown that doesn't involve either a freeway or a forty-minute drive/bus ride. Seriously, without 26th I could get from the river to Lake Calhoun faster by foot on the Greenway than by car on city streets or by the 21 on Lake Street.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby woofner » November 21st, 2013, 4:52 pm

Why should people who live along 26th & 28th have to get lung cancer because you don't like the freeway? How many minutes of savings are worth how many years taken off the life of a neighborhood resident? We've let stoopid suburb peepul frame the debate around convenience for too long - public health and ecology are far more important than whether you save 20 minutes going to jog around a lake because you're bored with jogging along a river.
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby talindsay » November 21st, 2013, 5:08 pm

Wow, I won't even go into all the assumptions you're making there, but I will note that we need decent transit options running across the city before we take away decent auto options.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby David Greene » November 21st, 2013, 5:44 pm

talindsay wrote:Wow, I won't even go into all the assumptions you're making there, but I will note that we need decent transit options running across the city before we take away decent auto options.
Except those auto options haven't existed since the city retimed the lights.

I now actively avoid 26th because it's so slow. It's actually faster to go further into downtown and down LaSalle during rush hour.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby UptownSport » November 21st, 2013, 6:20 pm

woofner wrote:Why should people who live along 26th & 28th have to get lung cancer because you don't like the freeway? How many minutes of savings are worth how many years taken off the life of a neighborhood resident? We've let stoopid suburb peepul frame the debate around convenience for too long - public health and ecology are far more important than whether you save 20 minutes going to jog around a lake because you're bored with jogging along a river.

Bah ha ha!

What, more smokers drive on one ways?

Cars consume (and pollute), radically more in stop and go than motoring at a good constant rate- We've already been through this, no matter how much of a fit UrbanMSP 'I hate cars' throws, not gonna change!

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby woofner » November 21st, 2013, 6:27 pm

I'm so tired of being the only one here to bring facts into the conversation. Even stop and go freeway motoring generates fewer particulate matter emissions (which cause more than 200k deaths in the USA every year) than surface street driving. On top of that, there's a significant systems effect from discouraging driving on surface streets that overwhelms moderately greater congestion. You guys can ignore the health impact you have on other human beings as much as you want, but that doesn't make it any less real.
UptownSport wrote:What, more smokers drive on one ways?
What do you think happens to liquified carbon when you burn it? I have no problem with this forum fulfilling the function of kindergarten for you, but it does get annoying every once in a while.
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby twincitizen » November 21st, 2013, 6:35 pm

I somewhat agree that converting 26th and 28th to two-ways is contingent on the opening of the Midtown rail / enhanced bus on Lake Street. There just aren't many options right now. "Fortunately" it would take that fracking long to study the conversion of 26th/28th that enhanced bus on Lake will likely be running by then, with Midtown not far behind.

The assumption I'd like to challenge is that these routes are automatically faster because they are one-ways. How much faster? How much of the traffic on them is induced demand that would actually be taking other, more direct routes, but are drawn to the one-way-ness because of perceived time savings? My own personal anecdote, living on 28th Street, is that I frequently have to drive several blocks out of my way and waste time clogging up other roads because I can't go the direction I want to on the street I live on.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby Wedgeguy » November 21st, 2013, 8:52 pm

MNdible wrote:
twincitizen wrote:^Not if we kill it so we can convert those streets to two-ways instead.


I believe you mean "those nightmarish freeway death-traps that only help stoopid suburb people".
ROTFL, Like suburbanites are going to be driving on 26th and 28th!! Give me some of what you are smoking. That is great mind bend!!

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Re: 26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby Mdcastle » November 21st, 2013, 9:16 pm

Granted I don't really go downtown either, but I can't think of why (unless I worked at Abbott or was visiting someone) I'd use 26th or 28th. I think I was on them was when I was taking pictures of the Sabo Bridge fail. Except for maybe between I-35W and Abbott I'd reckon 90% of the cars are city dwellers.

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Re: 26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby mattaudio » November 21st, 2013, 9:22 pm

As someone who worked with thousands of suburbanites at a corporate campus between 26th and 29th, suburbanites do use them quite a bit.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT)

Postby talindsay » November 21st, 2013, 9:32 pm

woofner wrote:I'm so tired of being the only one here to bring facts into the conversation. Even stop and go freeway motoring generates fewer particulate matter emissions (which cause more than 200k deaths in the USA every year) than surface street driving.
Wait, I thought we were opposed to freeways? I guess I'm behind the times. Regardless, I avoid them like the plague. They're boring and encourage zoning out while checking facebook at the wheel.

But since we're talking about facts, I think it's important to note that a given engine produces the exact same particulate emissions per MINUTE at a given RPM no matter how fast it's going or what road surface it's on; which means that at the same RPM in the same GEAR (i.e., at the same speed) a given vehicle produces the same particulate emissions regardless of whether it's on a freeway or a city street. Now, I always grind my own gears whether I'm on a motorcycle, a scooter, or my car - I hate slushboxes - and I can tell you that when I'm going 30 in third gear on the freeway my engine is doing the exact same thing as when I'm going 30 in third gear on a city street, turning the same RPMs and releasing the same particulates. The only difference is that 30 on a freeway is maddeningly irritating while 30 on a city street feels nice.

The 26th-28th pair has a good deal fewer stops for through traffic than other surface streets (though David correctly points out that it has more than it used to, and I believe his argument that it's because timings were changed); when you accept that traffic that stops more often spends more time idling and hence takes more time to cover the same distance, that means the cars release more particulates. Converting the streets to two-way may calm traffic and hence is probably a better option for the neighborhoods; I'm all for it, once we have decent transit options in the same corridor. But it likely *will* mean more particulates from the cars that traverse those streets, not less, due to longer trip times and more idling.

You can preach till you're blue in the face about the virtues of interstates and how we should never use city streets (which is comically ironic from my viewpoint as a city resident who doesn't like interstates, but whatever), but a whole lot of traffic isn't even considering the interstate as an alternative along this corridor, especially since it takes you ten blocks out of your way on both ends of the trip and likely still involves idling in stop-and-go traffic. So you'll have to decide whether, considering that cars in this corridor aren't going to be magically turned into interstate traffic, the higher particulate levels likely with slower traffic are a good tradeoff for slower, more neighborhood-friendly streets. I think that's probably a reasonable tradeoff once we have good transit options in the corridor, but not before.

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Re: 26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby talindsay » November 21st, 2013, 9:36 pm

Mdcastle wrote:Granted I don't really go downtown either, but I can't think of why (unless I worked at Abbott or was visiting someone) I'd use 26th or 28th. I think I was on them was when I was taking pictures of the Sabo Bridge fail. Except for maybe between I-35W and Abbott I'd reckon 90% of the cars are city dwellers.
Yes, I think that's probably about right; there's definitely a lot of suburban traffic to the hospital and a bit of suburban traffic over by the lakes but I'd be really surprised if the traffic weren't almost all city dwellers otherwise, especially outside rush hours. We do need to get around the city ourselves, after all.

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Re: 26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby woofner » November 22nd, 2013, 10:55 am

talindsay wrote:The 26th-28th pair has a good deal fewer stops for through traffic than other surface streets (though David correctly points out that it has more than it used to, and I believe his argument that it's because timings were changed); when you accept that traffic that stops more often spends more time idling and hence takes more time to cover the same distance, that means the cars release more particulates.
Yes, and even in stop and go freeway traffic there is less stopping and idling than on uncongested urban streets. This is why it is a better option ecologically and overall for public health.
talindsay wrote: Converting the streets to two-way may calm traffic and hence is probably a better option for the neighborhoods; I'm all for it, once we have decent transit options in the same corridor. But it likely *will* mean more particulates from the cars that traverse those streets, not less, due to longer trip times and more idling.
No, this is the DOT argument, but it doesn't account for induced demand. It assumes the exact same number of trips, but if capacity on a roadway is reduced, there will be fewer overall trips. This is particularly true for an overbuilt urban street, for which there are typically many alternatives to any given trip.
talindsay wrote:a whole lot of traffic isn't even considering the interstate as an alternative along this corridor, especially since it takes you ten blocks out of your way on both ends of the trip and likely still involves idling in stop-and-go traffic.
Assuming you're talking about someone who wants to go from one end of Lake St to the other, please remember that 26th St is already halfway to I-94 for them. I doubt that on average the increased distance would make up for the reduced emissions from freeway driving, but certainly in some cases it would. But more likely is that the trip wouldn't be taken at all or would be taken at a non-peak time.
talindsay wrote:You can preach till you're blue in the face about the virtues of interstates and how we should never use city streets (which is comically ironic from my viewpoint as a city resident who doesn't like interstates, but whatever)
Do you propose boycotting the freeways? Do you think that MnDot is going to start tearing them up once they get below a certain AADT? Might as well use them to drive more efficiently and avoid impacting neighborhoods as long as they're here. Unless, of course, your concern is only for your own convenience.
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Re: 26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby talindsay » November 22nd, 2013, 11:24 am

woofner wrote:Do you propose boycotting the freeways? Do you think that MnDot is going to start tearing them up once they get below a certain AADT? Might as well use them to drive more efficiently and avoid impacting neighborhoods as long as they're here. Unless, of course, your concern is only for your own convenience.
You're not wrong and in the aggregate all your points are certainly valid. I put 4,200 miles on my car in the 12 months from November 1, 2012 to November 1, 2013 (I keep a log) and my car has a 1.4 liter engine so I do think I'm doing a pretty good job of limiting my effect on the public health of my neighbors; but ultimately I, like everybody, am more motivated on a daily basis by my own convenience than by an altruistic desire to make the world better. Everybody ultimately is mostly motivated by their own personal interests, and we all have different formulas in choosing what our personal interests are. For me, time and health are more valuable than most other things, which are primary drivers of my choice to live in the city and not a suburb. Others favor a different mix; but there's nothing wrong with different people choosing different amounts, and it's good to remember that most formulations aren't inherently especially more virtuous or malicious than others.

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Re: 26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby RailBaronYarr » November 22nd, 2013, 11:33 am

talindsay wrote:You're not wrong and in the aggregate all your points are certainly valid. I put 4,200 miles on my car in the 12 months from November 1, 2012 to November 1, 2013 (I keep a log) and my car has a 1.4 liter engine so I do think I'm doing a pretty good job of limiting my effect on the public health of my neighbors; but ultimately I, like everybody, am more motivated on a daily basis by my own convenience than by an altruistic desire to make the world better. Everybody ultimately is mostly motivated by their own personal interests, and we all have different formulas in choosing what our personal interests are. For me, time and health are more valuable than most other things, which are primary drivers of my choice to live in the city and not a suburb. Others favor a different mix; but there's nothing wrong with different people choosing different amounts, and it's good to remember that most formulations aren't inherently especially more virtuous or malicious than others.
No, which is exactly why our transportation network and associated costs (monetary and time) need to be implemented based on more than just the time it takes for a particular mode to move through a street/highway/freeway. Are all the external costs of driving (at a certain speed with the hazards they present, at a certain pollution level, etc) truly considered for how a street is laid out? Transportation engineers and officials go so far as to throw in some nebulous number of time savings from congestion relief, so they clearly recognize there are external costs (even if they vastly over-estimate this particular one). Why not others? What would our transportation network look like if they hadn't? Our built form?

In the long haul, people would make different decisions about where/how to live, using the exact same personal formula they currently have (just with different inputs). I'm not expert enough to say we wouldn't need a freeway coming in to downtown (despite my ramblings in that thread not to be named). But I know things would look different on 26th and 28th Sts...

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Re: 26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby talindsay » November 22nd, 2013, 11:39 am

As a transit person I want to see us get better core transit options out there in conjunction with designing the system to disincentivize driving. Frankly, it's absurd to me that I would ever drive to Uptown - it's a four mile straight line from my house - but when it takes close to an hour to get there by transit (factoring in the walk to and from the bus stop at either end) I have to assign zero value on my time to not drive it. And I do *sometimes* take the bus anyway, but good transit is the key.

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Re: 26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

Postby go4guy » November 22nd, 2013, 1:11 pm

I live in the suburbs, and take 26th and 28th twice a day, each work day from Hennepin to the Wells Fargo HM campus on 5th. The lights are times so I do not have to stop, idle, and then accelerate at every stop. This is by far the best way to get to work from St Louis Park. No other viable options. I am a suburbanite, and I use those roads. I personally think it would be awful to change those to 2-way streets. Just my opinion


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