Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

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UptownSport
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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby UptownSport » June 28th, 2013, 9:06 am

Sound like one of those cool-but-too-crazy-to-work kind of transit schemes? Beijing has already mapped out 116 miles of its Mentougou District as a test bed for the 3D Fast Bus. Construction to install the proper infrastructure should begin by year's end.
This intent of this post isn't to grandstand-
Each choice we make takes away from another form of transit- Buses even conflict with buses- as we've spoken about on Nicollet mall and seen if we've ever ridden a bus-Except expensive tunneling and for some reason unliked elevated ...
Something other China seems to have found something that is less intrusive-

Image

It could ride on modified guideways where Snelling narrows

http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2010 ... underneath

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby talindsay » June 28th, 2013, 10:15 am

UptownSport wrote:Something other China seems to have found something that is less intrusive-

Image
I think that falls into the category of "too clever for its own good". Having unregulated moving vehicles passing underneath another moving vehicle raises a tremendous risk of an accident, especially since the drivers underneath won't know when the vehicle around them will slow down or speed up. And even as it raises the risk of an accident occurring, it simultaneously substantially raises the consequences of said accident. I can imagine the possibility of such a scheme working *maybe* if the vehicles allowed underneath are only professionally-driven vehicles (buses, emergency vehicles, *maybe* taxis) but even then it seems like a crazy-high risk to take.

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby UptownSport » June 28th, 2013, 7:55 pm

First thing that popped into my head was a trail or crumpled SUV's in it's wake!!
I'd guess they don't have that many Jeep Liberty's in China, tho)

I like the thinking behind it- Allows traffic to flow without as much interference as bus- Even being flawed as you say

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby planetxan » June 29th, 2013, 9:51 am

Here is a list of the Hi-Frequency routes with their corresponding corridors from the "bus rapid" study. As you can see they match one to one, except the 515, Robert St, and American Blvd. Many of these are also potential streetcar routes.

Hi Routes Rapid Bus Corridors
5................Chicago
6................Hennepin
10...............Central
16...............(Metro Green)
18...............Nicollet
19...............Broadway*
21...............Lake
54...............West 7th
64...............East 7th*
84...............Snelling
55...............(Metro Blue)
515.............. -
- .................American Blvd
- .................Robert St

* partial overlap

If they use 'rapid bus' or BRT for branding, they could brand themselves into a corner. There is a difference between what a service is trying to accomplish and the medium of delivering that service. With the Metro branding they have kept these separate; there is BRT and LRT but it is all Metro because of the kind of service it is offering. Both of these networks, Hi-Frequency and Rapid Bus, are about the quality and type of service delivered. They need to combine them to keep things simple. If Metro is the first and simplest layer, this is the next, and it should remain as simple as possible.


Say "Hi" to the network.
Hi-Frequency
Hi-Speed
Hi-Quality
Hi!

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby mulad » June 29th, 2013, 10:55 am

It's growing on me, though I'll just lay out a few thoughts: In my mind there's some potential overlap between "Hi!" and "Hiawatha", since "Hi" was an old nickname for the Milwaukee Road's high-end passenger trains. But being associated with something fast and rich in amenities isn't bad. The nickname never transferred over to Hiawatha LRT, though (which most people have just called "the light rail", at least until the Blue Line name came along). I'd suspect some confusion between "Hi!" and "Hi-Frequency" too, much like how I don't like the arbitrariness of "rapid bus" versus "bus rapid transit". But ideally the "Hi!" network would replace the Hi-Frequency network over time, so that might not matter.

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby planetxan » June 30th, 2013, 12:02 pm

hi2.png
Here's a logo.

I am really rethinking what they are trying to do with both these networks and what can be accomplished from the point of view of the user. Imagine a new or infrequent user being confronted with the full transit system map vs just the hi-freq or arterial map. It is much less intimidating. Now, what kind of network service should that be that would get people wanting to, or at least not avoiding using it? Known stops at known locations. Stops that are easy to identify, not just a sign but a structure associated with those lines. I am thinking something like Metro Lite - faster and more comfortable than current bus routes, but not with the heavy infrastructure commitment of the light rail system. Routes could continue past the network running as a local route at either end, so that only a segment is part of this new network. Or streetcars and buses could share the route. But someone using this network would not need to worry about what is happening at the ends as they branch out or what kind of vehicle. No worrying, "does a 5A or 5B go to where I want to go," just 5 Hi! (or Hi 5 - Up top!)
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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby UptownSport » June 30th, 2013, 5:42 pm

Wonder if that's intellectual property:

Image

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby seanrichardryan » June 30th, 2013, 8:28 pm

Is that a dodge neon?
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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby talindsay » June 30th, 2013, 8:37 pm

UptownSport wrote:Wonder if that's intellectual property:

Image
I remember that ad, the Neon came out just around the time I graduated from high school and I *REALLY* wanted one. My sister got one instead a year later, and I remember being jealous. I look back and think how lame the Neon was, but I drive a Fiat 500 so clearly my "I like cute friendly cars" tendency hasn't died.

I'm pretty sure Dodge (Fiat) can't own the IP to the word "Hi", and if they own it as an advertising mark for a car that they discontinued a few years back I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have legal grounds to dispute its use for a transit system - different segments and not one that would cause harm to Dodge (Fiat).

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby LRV Op Dude » July 1st, 2013, 2:23 am

Arterial Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) Quarterly Update to Metropolitan Council Transportation Committee Monday, June 24, 2013. They talk about vehicle design , route name and the branding name.
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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby UptownSport » July 1st, 2013, 8:58 am

J/k about the Hi.

Neons & Cavaliers were good little cars in that era, small, practical, efficient and quick.

You can get the stock DOHC Neon to do 13.8 in 1/4- While getting 40MPG-

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby twincitizen » July 2nd, 2013, 10:11 am

In the link above from LRV Op Dude, they get into a whole dissertation on the reason why "Rapid" is not being advanced as a name. Pretty much every single member of Met Council's Transportation Committee is saying "What the hell? Rapid is the most obvious name and tested the best out of any of them. We need to reconsider this." But under the direction of Brian Lamb, Metro Transit staff are absolutely terrified of pissing off 1 or 2 Dakota County commissioners who made a stink about it.

As I've said before, let's delay the naming decision for 6 months or so while everyone in Dakota County acclimates to the "Red Line" name and they'll forget it was ever called BRT or Bus Rapid Transit. Then we can get a name that isn't stupid, matches what every other region is doing, and everybody wins without a fight.

Toward the end of the video, Lamb brought up a good point that most customers may never even refer to this service as "Rapid" or "Direct" but as the A-line, B-line, etc. That moniker alone should be able to differentiate this as a premium service, situated between the METRO system and regular numbered bus routes.

As much as I would like for it to be called Rapid, it really isn't very important to the success of the service, as long as it's not something completely embarrassing like "Wave"

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby talindsay » July 2nd, 2013, 10:40 am

Actually, I think "rapid' is a pretty poor name for this service since there's no reason to believe the buses will actually be any quicker than the limited-stop high-frequency buses they replace. This whole arterial concept is about improving the experience, enriching the amenities and making better investments on core corridors, but the changes to prioritize the buses will only make marginal speed improvements.

I actually really like the "Hi!" idea - I hope somebody suggests it to officials - because it emphasizes what this investment is actually likely to deliver, which is high frequencies, high amenities, and maybe higher speeds, though the name doesn't have to imply the latter in the way that "Rapid" does. Promising something we *know* will be delivered is a lot smarter than making a false promise of high speeds.

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby twincitizen » July 2nd, 2013, 11:34 am

Metro Transit wrote:Snelling aBRT A-line
48 minutes end-to-end today
36 minutes with BRT (27% faster)
Not fast enough for you? It's a huge improvement for the relatively small investment. Obviously it's not truly rapid transit. Without grade separation, there is no rapid. I get that. That's no reason not to follow suit with what Seattle and other peer cities are calling this service though.

I do think some of the other corridors are going to need stretches of exclusive/limited ROW though. Hennepin for example, would see minimal running time improvements without some sections of exclusive lanes. Right lanes limited to buses, bikes, and right turns WITH ENFORCEMENT should be on the table for that line.

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby MSPtoMKE » July 2nd, 2013, 11:54 am

talindsay wrote: I actually really like the "Hi!" idea - I hope somebody suggests it to officials - because it emphasizes what this investment is actually likely to deliver, which is high frequencies, high amenities, and maybe higher speeds, though the name doesn't have to imply the latter in the way that "Rapid" does. Promising something we *know* will be delivered is a lot smarter than making a false promise of high speeds.
If officials are worried about people confusing "Rapid" with BRT and the Red Line, there is just no way they will go with the name "Hi". It is an already existing branding for buses that run at least every 15 minutes. There is overlap between the corridors, but they aren't the same thing.

I agree that what they call it isn't really all that important, as long as it isn't silly sounding. I would tend to put "Hi!" (with an exclamation point) in the silly sounding group. To me it doesn't suggest "high frequencies, high amenities, and higher speeds". It suggests someone saying,"Hi!"
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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby mattaudio » July 2nd, 2013, 12:16 pm

But isn't the point that we could convert all existing hi-freq corridors to aBRT?

I'd rather see service enhancements that allow us to reduce the complexity of transit branding, rather than just adding to the pile.

The purpose of branding is to set expectations and standards for service. Obviously we're already failing at that goal, considering we gave the Cedar BRT the same branding as light rail despite the numerous ways it falls short.

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby MNdible » July 2nd, 2013, 12:17 pm

Agreed that the name isn't terribly important, but I liked "Move" from the earlier round of suggestions. It implies both increased mobility and speed, without treading on the "Rapid" sacred ground.

It also has some nice alliterative possibilities: Metro Move.

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby mattaudio » July 2nd, 2013, 12:18 pm

Would it be possible to do a letter prefix before bus numbers to denote different types of services?
Ex: R84 for rapid route 84, X477 for express, etc?

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby talindsay » July 2nd, 2013, 1:01 pm

mattaudio wrote:But isn't the point that we could convert all existing hi-freq corridors to aBRT?

I'd rather see service enhancements that allow us to reduce the complexity of transit branding, rather than just adding to the pile.

The purpose of branding is to set expectations and standards for service. Obviously we're already failing at that goal, considering we gave the Cedar BRT the same branding as light rail despite the numerous ways it falls short.
Yes, I agree.

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Re: Arterial Transit Corridor Study ("rapid bus")

Postby FISHMANPET » July 2nd, 2013, 1:04 pm

But then we went ahead and did something stupid like build a Metro line that isn't a part of the Hi-Frequency network.
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