Highway Transitway Corridor Study

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mattaudio
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby mattaudio » December 9th, 2016, 1:04 pm

Instead of a 169/Bren Road BRT station, why not do a simple loop at the City West station like this...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=10vRZv ... sp=sharing

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 9th, 2016, 4:20 pm

^ FYI that doc is locked.

I always felt a 55 routing to get into Minneapolis was a better option. Particularly if 394 gets a highway BRT with a quality transfer station between it and the 169 transitway, you give people a single seat ride to more walkable locations along 55 along with connections along the Blue Line extension that make getting north a bit faster than transferring downtown. Also adding effective transit frequency along 55.

That said, I think a TH55 routing (using NB here...) should get on 394, then exit to General Mills Blvd to make a connection to where the 394 highway bus stations would be (plan said westbound off-line, eastbound in-line, so maybe this is more challenging than I'm imagining), then continue north to 55.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby DanPatchToget » December 10th, 2016, 9:00 am

Realistically when could Highway 169 BRT be in operation?

I think it would be better to move the station from Old Shakopee Road to Pioneer Trail and/or Anderson Lakes Parkway. Anderson Lakes Parkway already has a park & ride for SW Transit, and these areas are more developed than the Old Shakopee Road location. Plus you can have a local bus going between Eden Prairie Center and Bloomington to connect with the BRT.

Tcmetro
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby Tcmetro » December 10th, 2016, 4:04 pm

The 169 BRT idea looks like it needs some serious refinement.
Big problems that I'm seeing:
- Old Shakopee Road station has nothing around it except low density housing that is a minimum 10 minute walk away. The industrial area would require a bus connection, which could just as well connect to the Orange Line.
- Bren Rd station is very close to the SWLRT station. I'm guessing it's purpose is to bring commuters from Shakopee to Opus?
- Cedar Lake Rd station has some apartment buildings within a 20 minute walk, but the 9 or 615 bus could quite easily bring those people to the 394 express services.
- 394 and 55 stations would be served by some kind of West Metro Highway BRT (394 or 55)

It seems like the only function of this line is to provide a connection from a Shakopee park and ride to job centers near the West End, General Mills and Opus. This is much likely a better idea for a peak hour service, but even then it's not likely to be too successful. Crosstown express buses in recent years haven't done too well, like the 565 Richfield-Target N, 687 Chaska-Target N, 494 Shakopee-Opus-Maple Grove, and an Eden Prairie-Burnsville line that was done maybe five or six years ago.

mattaudio
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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby mattaudio » February 1st, 2017, 3:10 pm

So, it looks like MN-252 will be freewayified through pop-up projects over the next decade or two. (TAB just approved funding for interchange at 66th Ave N, and a pedestrian overpass at 70th Ave N).

It seems like this approach could miss some solid BRT opportunity in the corridor, especially since some of the metro's highest ridership express lines travel along this roadway. Wouldn't it make sense to plan for BRT of some sort (center platforms?) as this corridor has interchanges built?

MNdible
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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby MNdible » February 1st, 2017, 3:32 pm

Not to push your buttons, Matt, but I'm honestly not convinced that you can justify the investments in BRT in this low density environment unless you build the corresponding Park and Ride infrastructure.

BoredAgain
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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby BoredAgain » February 1st, 2017, 3:38 pm

Leaving room for future platforms would be relatively inexpensive. There is no need (or money) to build those platforms now, just leave room for the potential in the future. In the meantime the reserved area acts as "green space" and also "pedestrian refuge" at times.

twincitizen
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby twincitizen » February 1st, 2017, 4:20 pm

Not saying that 252 has no merit, but the somewhat recent Highway BRT Study identified 94/694 to Maple Grove Transit Station. A corridor continuing north on 252 was not even studied, AFAIK. That's a big hurdle to convincing MNDOT/MetC that there should be any kind of BRT expenditure on top of the interchange.

https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... Study.aspx

And MNdible, for what it's worth, there are (off-line) P&Rs at 66th Ave (movie theater) and 73rd (church of nazarene).

I agree that there should definitely be an inline or online stop built at 66th. But I think you'd have to sell it as serving the existing express service, not for a BRT service that doesn't even exist on paper.

Tcmetro
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby Tcmetro » February 1st, 2017, 4:43 pm

It's probably better to redesign the local bus network there, the 66th Ave stop is essentially a holdover from the pre-highway days. I would imagine that the neighborhood express buses (763) work well enough for this area, and that park and riders can go over to the Blue Line on Broadway or use the Noble/610 or Foley/610 facilities.

Mikey
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby Mikey » February 5th, 2017, 8:10 am

I wonder if they think BRT on 252 would duplicate Northstar too much
Urbanist in the north woods

twincitizen
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby twincitizen » January 14th, 2020, 1:54 pm

Washington County has an RFP out for a "TH-36 Corridor Transit Feasibility Study", to study Highway BRT from Downtown Minneapolis to Stillwater: https://www.co.washington.mn.us/Documen ... ?bidId=366

"Washington County is seeking proposals from qualified firms to conduct the Trunk
Highway (TH) 36 Corridor Transit Feasibility Study. This study will define the vision of the
TH 36 Transit Corridor through analysis of existing and emerging mobility needs within
the TH 36 corridor, examining the feasibility of east-west oriented, high frequency
transit service along the TH 36 corridor between the termini of the City of Minneapolis
and the cities of Oak Park Heights and Stillwater, and identifying opportunities to further
study or develop enhanced transit service operating along the TH 36 corridor, as well as
improve connections to the regional transit system. This study will define the long-term vision
for transit in the TH 36 corridor, and will identify interim steps that can be taken to improve
transit mobility in the corridor and support the long-term vision."

Image

Additional background reference: MnDOT's 2018 MnPass System Study: http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projec ... t-2018.pdf This discusses future HOT lanes on 35W/36 (reaching as far east as 35E), which is identified as a "Tier 2 Corridor", meaning it is a lower priority than other corridors such as 94 between the downtowns, 94/252 through North Mpls, etc. That said, 35W definitely is going to need a full reconstruction between the river and TH-36 someday, so transit will likely have to wait on that project.

twincitizen
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby twincitizen » January 14th, 2020, 2:46 pm

My thoughts: I'm kinda surprised this $300,000 study is being funded entirely by Washington County. I'm not surprised Hennepin isn't involved, but you'd think Ramsey County would be an equal partner with Washington...just look at the map. With this being planned from a suburban mentality, it's kind of easy to picture this terminating at US Bank Stadium (for Blue/Green transfers) and maybe popping off 35W at Quarry or Industrial Blvd (I'd prefer the former), with no other stops in Minneapolis.

I hope they study multiple options for the Minneapolis terminus, including:
1. exiting 35W at the University/4th exit and crossing the river into downtown via Central Ave, serving the Marq2 corridor (i.e. where the vast majority of suburban riders want to go). That would also open up transfers to the E Line on Uni/4th at Central.
2. exiting 35W near US Bank Stadium and using Washington Ave or 3rd/4th Sts to access the CBD.
3. They should at least study the feasibility of interlining this with the Orange Line, though I could see frequency and span of service being a poor match for the two services, not to mention the reliability issues of operating a line that long (Burnsville Center to Stillwater?!). Running through 4 counties would also be a big headache for the funding counties to sort out how much each pays for operations & construction.

I kinda wish this was being studied by Ramsey County as Maplewood Mall is such a logical endpoint, and would meet up with the Rush Line. Century College would be another good terminus, right on the border of Washington County. Those lines would run about 15-17 miles from US Bank Stadium. Stillwater is a nice town but just too damn far away from the rest of the metro's population and jobs. There's still 10 miles of cornfields and semi-rural development separating 36/694 and Stillwater.

Back to the Orange Line thing, it absolutely won't be able to interline if this extends to Stillwater. Burnsville Center to Rosedale is believable, at 26 miles and 50-55 minutes one-way trip time. Burnsville Center to Maplewood Mall / Rush Line is getting to be a stretch, at 33 miles and 70+ minutes one-way trip time. Burnsville to Stillwater is a complete joke and breaks the idea of this corridor interlining with any other service.

mamundsen
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby mamundsen » January 14th, 2020, 5:00 pm

twincitizen wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 2:46 pm
My thoughts: I'm kinda surprised this $300,000 study is being funded entirely by Washington County. I'm not surprised Hennepin isn't involved, but you'd think Ramsey County would be an equal partner with Washington...just look at the map. With this being planned from a suburban mentality, it's kind of easy to picture this terminating at US Bank Stadium (for Blue/Green transfers) and maybe popping off 35W at Quarry or Industrial Blvd (I'd prefer the former), with no other stops in Minneapolis.

I hope they study multiple options for the Minneapolis terminus, including:
1. exiting 35W at the University/4th exit and crossing the river into downtown via Central Ave, serving the Marq2 corridor (i.e. where the vast majority of suburban riders want to go). That would also open up transfers to the E Line on Uni/4th at Central.
2. exiting 35W near US Bank Stadium and using Washington Ave or 3rd/4th Sts to access the CBD.
3. They should at least study the feasibility of interlining this with the Orange Line, though I could see frequency and span of service being a poor match for the two services, not to mention the reliability issues of operating a line that long (Burnsville Center to Stillwater?!). Running through 4 counties would also be a big headache for the funding counties to sort out how much each pays for operations & construction.

I kinda wish this was being studied by Ramsey County as Maplewood Mall is such a logical endpoint, and would meet up with the Rush Line. Century College would be another good terminus, right on the border of Washington County. Those lines would run about 15-17 miles from US Bank Stadium. Stillwater is a nice town but just too damn far away from the rest of the metro's population and jobs. There's still 10 miles of cornfields and semi-rural development separating 36/694 and Stillwater.

Back to the Orange Line thing, it absolutely won't be able to interline if this extends to Stillwater. Burnsville Center to Rosedale is believable, at 26 miles and 50-55 minutes one-way trip time. Burnsville Center to Maplewood Mall / Rush Line is getting to be a stretch, at 33 miles and 70+ minutes one-way trip time. Burnsville to Stillwater is a complete joke and breaks the idea of this corridor interlining with any other service.
I agree that I’m surprised this is not cosponsored by Ramsey. Any chance they’d skip over everything between Minneapolis and Washington County?

The Minneapolis to Maplewood Mall route is 270. It is very frequent (10 min) during rush hours. I wish they’d add mid-day trips and later in the evening.

Once outside of Minneapolis I could see stops at the quarry, Rosedale, White Bear Ave, then into Washington County. If there were too many it would become extremely slow. (Example a 270P that stops at Rice St and County C can add 10 minutes over the normal 270)

DanPatchToget
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby DanPatchToget » January 14th, 2020, 5:10 pm

I’ve always imagined a Highway 36 BRT being part of a northern extension of the Red Line. But interlining or not, Stillwater is pretty far and as already mentioned it’s undeveloped east of 694, and the development that exists as go into Stillwater on the highway is auto oriented and would be difficult to serve with BRT. Going to Maplewood Mall and sharing infrastructure with the Rush Line makes more sense to me.

I’m curious what Washington’s definition of BRT is. If it involves headways longer than 15 minutes off-peak then it’s not BRT.

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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby Silophant » January 14th, 2020, 5:49 pm

BRT to Rosedale or even Maplewood Mall makes some sense, but those don't do anything for Washington County, and it's hard to imagine even the most dedicated booster making a good case for even 20-minute bus frequency through the undeveloped 10 miles between 694 and Stillwater.

This really seems more like a job for a regional rail service (with extra rush hour trips), but I'm sure the specter of Northstar and irrationally anti-train GOP lawmakers makes that not even a consideration.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby DanPatchToget » January 15th, 2020, 9:31 am

Silophant wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 5:49 pm
BRT to Rosedale or even Maplewood Mall makes some sense, but those don't do anything for Washington County, and it's hard to imagine even the most dedicated booster making a good case for even 20-minute bus frequency through the undeveloped 10 miles between 694 and Stillwater.

This really seems more like a job for a regional rail service (with extra rush hour trips), but I'm sure the specter of Northstar and irrationally anti-train GOP lawmakers makes that not even a consideration.
So Washington County is about to waste $300K on a study of BRT even though it'll actually be more of a glorified limited-stop bus. Great. :roll:

They really should shift that money to studying regional rail to Stillwater via the Union Pacific right-of-way. Upgrading that line for regional rail would make a stronger case for that coalition trying to get intercity rail between the Twin Cities and Eau Claire.

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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby Vagueperson » January 29th, 2020, 9:37 pm

If we had a regional rail system in the Twin Cities I would expect something to connect out to Stillwater. Given financial realities we are obviously building a regional rapid bus network instead.

I'm curious how many stops they would plan for this line, but if it makes a quick ride to Stillwater it sounds nice. I know several people who commute between St. Paul and Stillwater. Not sure if it needs all day frequent service. Connecting with the Rush Line seems like a no brainer. Why not continue to MPLS?

DanPatchToget
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby DanPatchToget » January 30th, 2020, 12:57 am

Vagueperson wrote:
January 29th, 2020, 9:37 pm
If we had a regional rail system in the Twin Cities I would expect something to connect out to Stillwater. Given financial realities we are obviously building a regional rapid bus network instead.

I'm curious how many stops they would plan for this line, but if it makes a quick ride to Stillwater it sounds nice. I know several people who commute between St. Paul and Stillwater. Not sure if it needs all day frequent service. Connecting with the Rush Line seems like a no brainer. Why not continue to MPLS?
The financial reality is we can’t keep wasting money on studies, building, and operating these glorified bus routes dreamt up by suburban politicians who think running a bunch of buses down a highway with inaccessible stations will generate riders.

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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby Multimodal » April 20th, 2020, 11:28 am

Is it not obvious that the reason for this route would be to encourage new development in the undeveloped area surrounding Stillwater? This is why it’s funded by Washington County, right?

If it would make this new development into a car-light, pedestrian-friendly area, it sounds like a good idea. Maybe the suburbs are waking up?

DanPatchToget
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Re: Highway Transitway Corridor Study

Postby DanPatchToget » April 20th, 2020, 11:42 am

Multimodal wrote:
April 20th, 2020, 11:28 am
Is it not obvious that the reason for this route would be to encourage new development in the undeveloped area surrounding Stillwater? This is why it’s funded by Washington County, right?

If it would make this new development into a car-light, pedestrian-friendly area, it sounds like a good idea. Maybe the suburbs are waking up?
I won't hold my breath on any development along Highway 36 in Stillwater being car-light and pedestrian-friendly. How about making the existing Downtown Stillwater car-light and pedestrian friendly while the area around Highway 36 is left as is; auto-centric and not friendly towards transit, pedestrians, and bikers.


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