MN Highway 252

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
mattaudio
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Re: Hwy 252

Postby mattaudio » May 20th, 2014, 8:19 am

Another place where I think we should let our roads be roads and our streets be streets. This is a road, and a high-volume high-speed (theoretically) connection between freeways. Grade separation of this stretch would have made much more sense than extension of 610. We ought to fix our urban network (whether making them more roadlike or more streetlike, not more stroadlike) before we expand our network.

Concept: http://goo.gl/maps/N6P5X

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Mdcastle
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Re: Hwy 252

Postby Mdcastle » May 20th, 2014, 11:30 am

This might be a good place for diverging diamonds, since they'd probably cost the same or less than a regular diamond interchange here and most of the traffic is probably going on off MN 252 so they'd work good from an vehicle operations point of view

froggie
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Re: Hwy 252

Postby froggie » May 21st, 2014, 2:08 pm

Only location along 252 that would really need something above and beyond a standard diamond is at 85th. The other potential interchange locations have fairly light volumes in comparison, so standard (or tight) diamonds should suffice otherwise.

Many years ago (probably going on 15 now), I sketched out a concept for a Hwy 252 freeway, though with far fewer interchanges than what Matt suggests (mostly due to ramp spacing). From south to north, I had a grade separation (but no ramps) at 66th, an interchange at 69th, grade separation at 73rd, interchange at Brookdale Dr, grade separation at 81st/Humboldt, and a higher capacity interchange at 85th.

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Mdcastle
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Re: Hwy 252

Postby Mdcastle » May 21st, 2014, 9:50 pm

Right now there doesn't seem to be any interest in trying to make a popup project happen, which is the only way there's going to be money for this in the next 20 years. I could see 85th (recognized as a bottleneck years ago) or 66th (recognized as one of the most dangerous interchanges in the state), but for the time being, beyond the idea of adding a third lane to MN 252, most of the interest seems to be finishing 610 and the US 10 Armstrong interchange.

Probably the best interchange at 85th from an operations standpoint would be a design that had a loop in the northeast quadrant. The MN 13 and County 5 interchange has very similar traffic volumes in similar directions and is being built that way, but this isn't likely to happen because it would wipe out the bicycle bridge and a bunch of houses and businesses.

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Anondson
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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby Anondson » March 21st, 2016, 10:10 pm

Brooklyn Center voted on what to do with the stop light on 252 just north of 694.

http://post.mnsun.com/2016/03/21/brookl ... esolution/

Voted for a full grade separation interchange. I dunno. I kinda think a lot of tweets could be done to make this less space-wasting. But those lights are deadly today.

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jw138
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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby jw138 » March 22nd, 2016, 7:56 am

Brooklyn Center voted on what to do with the stop light on 252 just north of 694.
Looks like it's a full conversion of 252 from an expressway to a freeway. 70th Avenue will be closed off but a pedestrian overpass added. Partial access to 73rd Avenue will remain. It was vague about Brookdale Drive, 81st, and 85th but my interpretation of the article is that they'd see a full grade separation with access ramps as well.

All I gotta say is, it's about time!

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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby MNdible » March 22nd, 2016, 9:06 am

Brooklyn Center has a page about this project here.

At this point, anything beyond the 66th Avenue interchange will require Brooklyn Park to buy into the plan, and thus far they haven't.

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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby froggie » March 22nd, 2016, 6:33 pm

Brooklyn Center goes up to 73rd, so anything at 70th (like the proposed access closure) could be done without requiring Brooklyn Park buy-in.

@jw138: the study may have focused on 66th, but it did look at the Brooklyn Park side, as has at least one MnDOT/Met Council study in the past. The likely scenario in the future would be an interchange at Brookdale Dr, an overpass or closure at 81st, and an interchange at 85th.

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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby MNdible » March 23rd, 2016, 12:56 pm

froggie wrote:Brooklyn Center goes up to 73rd, so anything at 70th (like the proposed access closure) could be done without requiring Brooklyn Park buy-in.
While that's technically true, it probably doesn't make sense to close 70th until you've got the upgraded interchange at 73rd and Brookdale ready to handle that traffic.

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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby twincitizen » March 23rd, 2016, 1:47 pm

What are people's thoughts about the folded diamond at 66th Ave? Is that really the best option there?

mattaudio
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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby mattaudio » March 23rd, 2016, 3:25 pm

It seems like a ridiculous waste of right-of-way for this location. What goes? Holiday on the west and two large-lot homes on the east? Still...

I assume they like the folded diamond because it maintains adequate spacing between 66th Ave ramps and I-694 interchange ramps. If you put ramps to the south, it requires braiding with the other ramps, and even more complicated ramp design if you want access between I-694 and 66th Ave N. Here are three potential ideas, all which preserve "in-use" right of way but all which involve flyover or braid bridges which would add to expense. Click the three layers to see the three ideas. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

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Mdcastle
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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby Mdcastle » March 23rd, 2016, 6:17 pm

Looking at property tax information, you could buy out the gasoline station and the two riverfront homes for under $2 Million (and have some riverfront land left over for a park or to resell). I'm guessing getting fancy with braided ramps could cost an extra $10-15 Million. Not a surprise that maybe a suburban style intersection is the best choice for the suburbs.

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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby froggie » March 24th, 2016, 7:05 am

I took a look at Matt's proposals. Here's a rundown of the problems with all three:

A) On the northbound side, the geometry for the northbound flyover is all wrong. It would require a lot more distance to bring one ramp to a grade to bridge over the other. If the intent is to do something similar to the ramp bridging under the loop on the southbound side there, keep in mind that that only works because the ramp goes several feet BELOW the grade of 252 there. Can't do that on the northbound side because of the proximity and grade of the WB 694-to-NB 252 ramp.

It could be workable on the northbound side, but what would be required is bringing the loop to merge with the WB-to-NB ramp then raising enough to bridge over the NB offramp to 66th. This would likely impact the back lot at Riverwood Estates Apartments. Even Matt's proposal as shown would impact the back yards of all the houses along the west side of Riverwood Ln. Even though these wouldn't be total acquisitions, the number of properties impacted by Matt's proposal A would be far greater than the current folded-diamond proposal.

The southbound side has issues of a different sort. The ramp merges are WAY too close together. Design standards call for a minimum of 600-800ft (I forget which offhand) between successive merges. Matt's proposal as shown is far less. What could be done on this side is start the SB offramp to 94/694 right on top of 66th, so that the ramp braiding is done with enough distance to allow for a proper merge. It'd be very tight and require a shorter on-ramp from 66th, but I think it can be done. However, this would impact part of the parking lot at the movie theater. Not insurmountable, but I don't see a way to do this within the existing right-of-way and still have it meet design standards.

B) The southbound ramp here would have the same issues as what I described above for Option A. I don't see how a directional ramp from 66th to 94 is workable here...the "solution" is a ramp similar to what I described above for A, but this wouldn't be a directional ramp.

The northbound side is generally workable, but for proper ramp geometry, the ramp would have to split at the same point as the existing NB 252-to-EB 694 ramp, and you'd run into the same ramp spacing issues I described above.

C) The southbound flyover is generally workable, although there would be noise/visual impacts at Melrose Gates Apartments, and the merge point would have to be around 59th to meet minimum ramp spacing standards.

Northbound would have to be an underpass...there's no way to make this work as a flyover. This would require replacing the EB 694-over-WB 94 bridge and adding new bridges to WB 694 and the ramp to WB 694.


All three of these options would be significantly more expensive than the current folded-diamond proposal, some of them with more impacts than the folded diamond. This is especially true if Monte's analysis of property value is correct. Monte's right in that the folded-diamond is probably the best solution here aside from closing the 66th intersection entirely.

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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby HiawathaGuy » June 1st, 2018, 12:02 pm

MnDOT awards three additional Corridors of Commerce projects

Highway 252 and Interstate 94, Highway 610 to Dowling Avenue (Metro District) – estimate up to $163 million, including up to $31 million in committed local funding.

This project will convert Highway 252 to a freeway and install MnPASS lanes on the roadway. The proposed project is intended to improve the capacity of this key corridor and dramatically improve the trip time reliability of the average rush hour trip. Project submitted by John Doan, Hennepin County, and Tony Fischer, Metropolitan Council.

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sdho
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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby sdho » June 1st, 2018, 12:15 pm

Cool... used to drive this daily when I was working in Brooklyn Park. With TH 252 as an at-grade expressway, it made TH 610 a weird dead-end freeway. Personally I think upgrading this section to a freeway should have been prioritized over extending 610 to 94. Glad to hear it has funding.

mattaudio
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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby mattaudio » June 1st, 2018, 2:04 pm

Any idea on designs or interchange locations for this?

Tcmetro
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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby Tcmetro » June 1st, 2018, 2:15 pm

So far what has been shown has interchanges at 66th, Brookdale Dr, and 85th, which some options having various considerations for 73rd.

MnDot hosted meetings last night and the night before but hasn't posted the boards yet.

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Re: MN Highway 252

Postby twincitizen » June 4th, 2018, 2:29 pm

Open House boards from Sept. 2017: http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projec ... boards.pdf
Summary of public input from that meeting: http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projec ... ummary.pdf

The six concepts for future access changes are on page 8. At first glance, concepts 3 and 4 seem the most likely.

MNDOT held two meetings last week. There's a WikiMap and survey you can take here: http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projec ... index.html


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