Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
grant1simons2
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby grant1simons2 » April 23rd, 2016, 1:49 pm


froggie
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby froggie » April 24th, 2016, 8:38 am

What are pedestrian counts like along Lake St? 10ft-and-change may not seem like much, but it's still a traffic-lane equivalent, and there are plenty of sidewalks in Lower Manhattan that are that width or narrower (and even a few Midtown Manhattan) that get by okay.

Regarding the proposal for southbound Stevens at Lake St, they're expecting a lot of turning traffic from the new off-ramp. A LOT. Enough to where it's higher than today's PM turning traffic from westbound Lake to southbound Stevens towards 35W south. That's driving the 4-lane design for southbound Stevens, probably so that queuing traffic doesn't back up onto the off-ramp. That said, excluding curb-and-gutter, the lanes are planned at a 10.8ft width.

twincitizen
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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby twincitizen » May 3rd, 2016, 1:38 pm

Mpls' TPW Committee has given its stamp of approval on municipal consent.
http://www.southwestjournal.com/news/tr ... rovements/

It's nearly unthinkable that this project doesn't get the last bit of state funding this year. Even if everything else falls through and we wind up with a small bonding bill, I have to believe this project still makes the cut.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby mattaudio » May 3rd, 2016, 1:42 pm

Still disappointed by the northbound exit bridge to 28th St.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby twincitizen » May 3rd, 2016, 2:01 pm

The existence of the exit itself or something specific to the bridge/configuration?

It is gonna be weird having the exiting freeway traffic turning right across the protected bike lanes (once they are extended west of Portland, as planned for 2017-18). I'd hope for a "No Right Turn on Red" for the exiting traffic, otherwise people will just be whipping that right turn coming up the exit ramp.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby amiller92 » May 3rd, 2016, 2:27 pm

Still disappointed by the northbound exit bridge to 28th St.
Admittedly, I haven't been paying attention, but I do not get it. Why have freeway exits 2 blocks apart?

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby mattaudio » May 3rd, 2016, 3:10 pm

Supposedly it's too burdensome for exiting traffic to get through the 31st and Lake stoplights before proceeding north along the 2 lane frontage road/high speed ramp to 28th St.

My main gripe is that it may make it harder to sell a two-way 26th and 28th down the road. But my other gripe is that it is (or was planned to be) ridiculously expensive. A major major cost driver of the project. Though that may have been why they removed the entrance from Lake to NB 35W, so to cut down the viaduct cost for this ramp.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby HiawathaGuy » May 3rd, 2016, 3:36 pm

Supposedly it's too burdensome for exiting traffic to get through the 31st and Lake stoplights before proceeding north along the 2 lane frontage road/high speed ramp to 28th St.

My main gripe is that it may make it harder to sell a two-way 26th and 28th down the road. But my other gripe is that it is (or was planned to be) ridiculously expensive. A major major cost driver of the project. Though that may have been why they removed the entrance from Lake to NB 35W, so to cut down the viaduct cost for this ramp.
I believe the main reason was about hospital access from the freeway, not those horrible automobile drivers on 35W! I for one cannot stand that MNDot doesn't seem to have any plans to fix the weave from 35th on/off to 31st. It causes backups to northbound 35W before the 36th Street off ramps, even on Saturdays! It's just dumb.
I've seen plenty of other states figure this out!

But, I digress. Hopefully some of northbound traffic now taking the 31st/Lake Street off ramp can take 28th, and southbound traffic can take the new Lake Street off ramp, thus buying a few more years before MNDot has to address the congestion that's been a part of this area for 20 years. And let's not even discuss the northbound 35W to 94 west staying ONE LANE still... at least have two lanes of traffic merge to one on the bridge, instead of just one lane from 35W, like exists today, and oftentimes is backed up to 26th. SMH

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby twincitizen » May 3rd, 2016, 3:42 pm

Looking at a different piece of the Orange Line part of the project, has anyone seen a map indicating the actual station locations for Knox/76th and Knox/American? I couldn't find anything on Metro Transit's project website.

Also, this map is not super new, but it was the first I'd seen it, so figured it was worth a share: http://www.senate.mn/committees/2015-20 ... hase_1.pdf

I have reached out to a few different parties to ask what the deal is with 35W/494 funding, but no answer yet. It's not called out in the bonding bill, and as I understand, is too large a project to go through the regular MNDOT budgeting process. Was money already allocated in the 2015 session? Could other unnamed funds in this year's bonding bill pay for it? It is pretty darn critical to the whole thing. Though I suppose it could begin construction as late as Spring 2018 and still open in very late 2019, as they are just building the NB>WB flyover and the Knox underpass, not reconstructing the entire interchange.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby Tcmetro » May 3rd, 2016, 7:05 pm

I can't realistically see the Orange Line opening until 2021. The Minnesota River and the Lake St projects will finally finish that year, and hopefully Knox Av funding can be sourced by then. If the project is delayed, the Lakeville extension should be pursued at the same time.

The scope has expanded with a direct bus ramp to/from 12th St to the center of 35W.

I feel that it is a little foolish that stations will not be placed at 9th St. It seems inconsistent to have the Orange line serve all the C stops except for 1. I think a convention center station at 2nd and 12th may be a good idea also.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby froggie » May 4th, 2016, 7:16 am

Lots to reply to here so please bear with me...
Supposedly it's too burdensome for exiting traffic to get through the 31st and Lake stoplights before proceeding north along the 2 lane frontage road/high speed ramp to 28th St.
On the flip side, giving traffic wanting to get to 28th their own exit cuts down on the cross-section necessary along 2nd Ave.
My main gripe is that it may make it harder to sell a two-way 26th and 28th down the road.
I don't think it makes it any harder. The only difference between the new ramp and the existing scenario is that traffic is coming directly off 35W instead of going through a couple signals first. The configuration essentially remains the same as far as 28th St is concerned.
But my other gripe is that it is (or was planned to be) ridiculously expensive. A major major cost driver of the project. Though that may have been why they removed the entrance from Lake to NB 35W, so to cut down the viaduct cost for this ramp.
Expensive, yes, but that isn't the reason the NB on-ramp from Lake was dropped. That was dropped due to the need for additional right-of-way along 2nd (2 additional properties), the weave situation it created along NB 35W, and the tight ROW constraints along NB 35W.
I for one cannot stand that MNDot doesn't seem to have any plans to fix the weave from 35th on/off to 31st. It causes backups to northbound 35W before the 36th Street off ramps, even on Saturdays! It's just dumb.
I've read literature that mentions MnDOT would still like to address this at some point...they just didn't have the opportunity (or the money) to do it with this project. Of course, we know what happened with their "Plan A": moving the 35th/36th ramps to 38th. Their "Plan B" (which was really "Plan A" from the early 1990s) is to braid the ramps between 31st and 35th, but that is where the expense comes in.
And let's not even discuss the northbound 35W to 94 west staying ONE LANE still... at least have two lanes of traffic merge to one on the bridge, instead of just one lane from 35W, like exists today, and oftentimes is backed up to 26th.
While I tend to agree about a 2-lane ramp vs. 1 lane, you have to consider the Lowry Hill Tunnel as the constraint here. Bringing a 2-lane ramp onto 94 without addressing the Tunnel would just make today's bad operational situation that much worse. I believe that their current proposal WILL significantly improve things along NB 35W. O-D studies have shown that the vast majority of drivers going from NB 35W to WB 94 continue into the tunnel, and about 2/3 continue beyond 394. Giving that ramp traffic their own lane into the tunnel and eliminating the weave between the ramp and the Hennepin/Lyndale exit will do wonders.
Looking at a different piece of the Orange Line part of the project, has anyone seen a map indicating the actual station locations for Knox/76th and Knox/American? I couldn't find anything on Metro Transit's project website.
The March 2014 E-newsletter shows what they've recommended. Although it's still in refinement, page 23 of this PDF gives a more detailed view of where they're planning the stations.
I have reached out to a few different parties to ask what the deal is with 35W/494 funding, but no answer yet. It's not called out in the bonding bill, and as I understand, is too large a project to go through the regular MNDOT budgeting process. Was money already allocated in the 2015 session? Could other unnamed funds in this year's bonding bill pay for it?
It's not too large to go through MnDOT's regular budgeting process. The problem is, what other projects would MnDOT pull funding from so they could do 35W/494? According to recent estimates I've seen, MnDOT, Metro Transit, and local parters would need to find $65-70 million in order to do this first interchange phase, build the Knox Ave underpass, and build the transit stations. Doing the interchange phase alone (without the transit improvements) would run about $40-45 million.
The scope has expanded with a direct bus ramp to/from 12th St to the center of 35W.
Indeed. Last month's Technical Advisory Committee presentation shows a layout of such on slide 3. Slide 4 shows a preliminary configuration along 12th, with 2-3 eastbound travel lanes, an eastbound buffered bike lane, and a westbound bus-only lane to 2nd Ave. The block between Marquette and 2nd Ave would retain parking.

The presentation suggests we'll see more detail on the Knox Ave and 98th St stations later this month.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby David Greene » May 4th, 2016, 8:59 am

LBringing a 2-lane ramp onto 94 without addressing the Tunnel would just make today's bad operational situation that much worse. I believe that their current proposal WILL significantly improve things along NB 35W. O-D studies have shown that the vast majority of drivers going from NB 35W to WB 94 continue into the tunnel, and about 2/3 continue beyond 394. Giving that ramp traffic their own lane into the tunnel and eliminating the weave between the ramp and the Hennepin/Lyndale exit will do wonders.
I dunno, I feel like putting in a concrete median at least along where the double-white is today would help a lot. People merge too damn early. They aren't up to speed. When driving WB 94 I am usually in the center lane to avoid the backups on the right. Invariably, there's plenty of open space to merge right (or left from NB 35W) about 500 feet after the double-white ends.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby HiawathaGuy » May 4th, 2016, 3:23 pm

I dunno, I feel like putting in a concrete median at least along where the double-white is today would help a lot. People merge too damn early. They aren't up to speed. When driving WB 94 I am usually in the center lane to avoid the backups on the right. Invariably, there's plenty of open space to merge right (or left from NB 35W) about 500 feet after the double-white ends.
Off-topic a bit, but I have always thought this too David. People cross the double white line as soon as they can - which is one of the biggest causes of backups in that area. Why MnDOT didn't install a concrete divider is beyond me - but there must have been a reason. I hope the new center ramp entrance will help. But I still think there needs to be more space to queue on northbound 35W, or it'll be no different than today.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby mattaudio » May 4th, 2016, 3:50 pm

Regarding the new center ramp entrance to I-94 west: Why not split I-94 west and bring this ramp into the middle of it? This would reduce weaving even further. Imagine going west on I-94 at 35W: Left two lanes are signed I-94 West, right two lanes are signed I-394 West / Hennepin-Lyndale. Bring a two-lane flyover from I-35W into the middle of this, reduced to a single lane before it merges into the mainlines (no weaving to slow traffic). Then you'd have a five lane profile after they merge. Merge the left lane right before the tunnel, and have the right lane exit to Hennepin-Lyndale. Maybe a drawing would explain it easier.

As it stands, the current plan is going to really suck for people in South Minneapolis who drive I-35W north to I-94 west to I-394 west.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby mattaudio » May 4th, 2016, 4:00 pm

One additional concern: The Franklin Ave bridge will be rebuilt as part of this project. Down at 38th, some neighborhood organizing and input meant that the project will be producing some traffic calming measures on 38th St as it interacts with I-35W. I haven't seen any indications this will be the case at Franklin. The current layout (Appendix A) seems to show a much wider bridge, likely adding a fifth lane for left turns northbound to the I-35W/I-94 ramp. But how does this fit into Franklin's future? What if there's restriping here, bike lanes or a road diet, etc?

I'm in the middle of dealing with another restriping project which includes a trouble spot at the 46th St bridge over I-35W. A bridge that's only a few years old, yet is a major barrier to producing a better outcome with more consistent facilities for the length of 46th Street. I don't want to see us repeat our mistakes at Franklin.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby MNdible » May 4th, 2016, 4:18 pm

Left two lanes are signed I-94 West, right two lanes are signed I-394 West / Hennepin-Lyndale. Bring a two-lane flyover from I-35W into the middle of this, reduced to a single lane before it merges into the mainlines (no weaving to slow traffic)...

As it stands, the current plan is going to really suck for people in South Minneapolis who drive I-35W north to I-94 west to I-394 west.
I thought this was what the master plan for this area had shown, but when they released the drawings for the reconstruction, it had been changed. I can only assume that the current layout will make the NB 35W --> Henn/Lyndale movement impossible, right?

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby EOst » May 4th, 2016, 5:00 pm

The current layout (Appendix A) seems to show a much wider bridge, likely adding a fifth lane for left turns northbound to the I-35W/I-94 ramp. But how does this fit into Franklin's future? What if there's restriping here, bike lanes or a road diet, etc?
I believe a left turn lane is planned eastbound. I thought for sure that I had read this project would include bike lanes on the bridge as well, but now I can't find it.

It doesn't seem like a huge issue to me, though. You need a road diet to get bike lanes on Franklin anyway, which means one thru lane east of 35W. With 5th Ave as a one-way, having two lanes EB on the bridge plus a LTL transitioning suddenly to one lane east of the bridge wouldn't make a whole lot of sense... though that didn't stop them from painting that awful merge on Franklin eastbound at Minnehaha.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby David Greene » May 4th, 2016, 8:14 pm

I thought this was what the master plan for this area had shown, but when they released the drawings for the reconstruction, it had been changed. I can only assume that the current layout will make the NB 35W --> Henn/Lyndale movement impossible, right?
That would really suck. It would mean more local traffic through south Minneapolis.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby froggie » May 4th, 2016, 8:43 pm

That would really suck. It would mean more local traffic through south Minneapolis.
I doubt that. As I noted above, the O-D study found that the vast majority of traffic on the ramp is continuing through the tunnel to at least 394, if not farther. If anything, this will mean some more traffic through downtown (likely along 11th) as traffic adjusts, but I doubt you'll see a significant increase through south Minneapolis.

Regarding why there's no concrete barrier along the double-white line, my hunch is because of spacing/clear zone requirements along Interstate routes. A Jersey barrier requires a MINIMUM of 4ft of width...and space is already a bit tight down in the 94 trench. If the new lane status sign just downstream of where the ramp meets 94 is any indication, MnDOT would have to build a retaining wall to hold up 16th St in order to provide the spacing requirements for a concrete barrier.

Regarding the merge itself, it is a classic definition of a heavy weave. A lot of 94 traffic wanting to exit at Hennepin/Lyndale, and a lot of 35W traffic wanting to get/stay on 94. And only 1/3 mile to do it in. FHWA standards call for a minimum of 1/2 mile, and preferably longer. This short distance plus the sheer volume of traffic have a lot more to do with the delays than those who merge too early.

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Re: Orange Line (35W BRT) & Lake St Transit Access Project

Postby David Greene » May 4th, 2016, 9:09 pm

Regarding the merge itself, it is a classic definition of a heavy weave. A lot of 94 traffic wanting to exit at Hennepin/Lyndale, and a lot of 35W traffic wanting to get/stay on 94. And only 1/3 mile to do it in. FHWA standards call for a minimum of 1/2 mile, and preferably longer. This short distance plus the sheer volume of traffic have a lot more to do with the delays than those who merge too early.
Maybe, but probably 95% of the cars I see from both freeways shift lanes early, if not over the double-white then immediately at the end of it. People literally almost stop. I don't expect barriers would cause completely free-flowing traffic or anything but it's got to be better than what we have now. Almost all of the time I can literally drive past the end of the double-white in the center lane and *easily* merge over to the Hennepin/Lyndale exit at speed long before I need to.

The other problem is people who are exiting at Lyndale/Hennepin go 30mph in the exit/entrance lane all the way down, slowing everyone else and causing backups.


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