Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
masstrlk67
City Center
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby masstrlk67 » April 12th, 2016, 11:47 am

RailBaronYarr wrote:But the Blue Line was built before the obviously-better Green Line (ridership, racial equity, you name the metrics, it's better) for a reason. A longer tail of people use the Blue Line infrequently, but sum up for fairly high daily ridership. Sure, there are jobs at MSP and we justified extending to MOA for a few more. But consistent daily riders to those destinations weren't the motivating political factor. Providing a one-seat, high-quality ride for business and leisure travelers to downtown, plus a long-tail of Minneapolis residents who could catch it to the airport or downtown events is the vision that sold people.
These are all valid points, but the Blue Line also had a much easier time with its ROW thanks to MN-55 and the former railroad while the Green Line ran into issues all along the route (UMN, University Ave businesses, the state capital, MPR). I suspect that plays at least as large a role as the airport's broad appeal in bumping up the Blue Line.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby RailBaronYarr » April 12th, 2016, 11:53 am

EOst wrote:Is it worth noting that people really hate taking luggage on buses? Even the special bus for the M60 to LaGuardia was always awful (though I never rode the SBS).
For what it's worth, "bus" is nearly meaningless in this case. Airport shuttles to car rental lots or even hotels are almost always loud, stinky diesel buses (or short buses). People use them a LOT. The difference, obviously, is that there's ample space to store luggage by having fewer seats and dedicated luggage racks. I imagine the A line bus interior would be pretty decent for people with luggage. I'd also note that I dislike lugging my suitcase down escalators to subway stations and through the obnoxious turnstyles, but when I'm traveling I make do.

acs
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby acs » April 12th, 2016, 12:13 pm

masstrlk67 wrote:
RailBaronYarr wrote:But the Blue Line was built before the obviously-better Green Line (ridership, racial equity, you name the metrics, it's better) for a reason. A longer tail of people use the Blue Line infrequently, but sum up for fairly high daily ridership. Sure, there are jobs at MSP and we justified extending to MOA for a few more. But consistent daily riders to those destinations weren't the motivating political factor. Providing a one-seat, high-quality ride for business and leisure travelers to downtown, plus a long-tail of Minneapolis residents who could catch it to the airport or downtown events is the vision that sold people.
These are all valid points, but the Blue Line also had a much easier time with its ROW thanks to MN-55 and the former railroad while the Green Line ran into issues all along the route (UMN, University Ave businesses, the state capital, MPR). I suspect that plays at least as large a role as the airport's broad appeal in bumping up the Blue Line.
Politically too, the Blue line was easier. It was a cheap enough project then that Hennepin county could pay for the bulk of it on their own, and it was completely within their territory. No CTIB needed. Plus, it touched the two biggest cities in the county, one of which was a suburb, so it wasn't just a MPLS project. If St. Paul was in the same county as Minneapolis, the green line would have probably gone first, but we'll never know.

froggie
Rice Park
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » April 12th, 2016, 1:43 pm

If St. Paul was in the same county as Minneapolis, the green line would have probably gone first, but we'll never know.
Actually, we can chalk the Green Line not being first up to a 1992 pocket veto from then-Governor Arne Carlson which would have authorized design, construction, and funding for what is now the Green Line.

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Tiller
Foshay Tower
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tiller » May 1st, 2016, 4:55 pm

http://focus.mnsun.com/2016/04/30/meeti ... -corridor/
Two walking tours of the CP rail spur this May:
The first meeting will be 5-7 p.m. Wednesday, May 11, at St. Luke Lutheran Church, 1807 Field Ave. in Saint Paul. The walking tour portion of the evening will follow alongside the CP rail spur between Edgcumbe Road and Cleveland Avenue.

The second meeting will be 5-7 p.m. Thursday, May 19, at Sholom Home, 740 Kay Ave. in Saint Paul. The walking tour will follow alongside the CP rail spur between Otto Avenue and Tuscarora Avenue.

David Greene
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby David Greene » May 2nd, 2016, 9:10 am

Over dinner time? Really?

froggie
Rice Park
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » May 2nd, 2016, 9:22 am

Build up an appetite.

David Greene
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby David Greene » May 2nd, 2016, 9:37 am

Not possible with kids...

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Tiller
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tiller » May 4th, 2016, 11:56 am

A good post going into different potential layouts on W 7th:

https://erikhare.com/2016/05/04/visions ... t-seventh/

twincitizen
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » May 4th, 2016, 12:47 pm

Be forewarned, Erik Hare is one of those clowns who think the Green Line should've gone down 94, etc. He likely doesn't want any changes to traffic or parking on West 7th.

mattaudio
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » May 4th, 2016, 1:32 pm

Eric "Markel" Hare?

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Tiller
Foshay Tower
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tiller » May 4th, 2016, 6:21 pm

Now that I'm off work, I was able to look at the post more closely - - there are inconsistencies.

I'd say the hybrid-LRV/Streetcar cross section works best. 4 lanes of traffic, 2 that are initially shared (the outer driving lanes), but can be dedicated later on. Parking is kept between the shared lanes and sidewalk, but would be used for stations at station locations (the sidewalks bumping-out). They can then later be turned into bike lanes.

Coincidently, that would leave 2 lanes for traffic sometime in the future. If space is really at a premium as mentioned in the post, squeezing out cars is only the best way forward. ;)

fehler
Rice Park
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby fehler » May 5th, 2016, 2:36 pm

I found the post offputting. "Lest show a bunch of extremes so my middle approach looks like the only logical, brilliant solution!"

DanB
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby DanB » May 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm

PAC meeting materials are up including 2 concepts for the St. Paul portion of the corridor focusing on West 7th street.

http://riverviewcorridor.com/wp-content ... 6-PT-1.pdf

In summary both concepts have a dedicated transit-way in the downtown area on 7th St. until Kellogg Blvd with east/northbound taking 5th street and west/southbound taking 6th before interlining. The first concept has a dedicated transitway down the entire length of 7th St. with one lane/track on either side of the road. The 2nd hybrid option has shared used on 7th between Kellogg and Webster then dedicated ROW down the CP route until it hits 7th again at Alton St. where the route again uses shared use lanes on 7th until turning on Davern St. where it has dedicated lanes down to and west on Shepard Rd.

Personally, I think the hybrid concept is more likely of the two to be chosen as it would disrupt West 7th St. less, I wish the portion from Kellogg to Webster could be dedicated though. Both these concepts obviously wouldn't serve the Ford site and would seem to require using or running above the Hwy 5 bridge.

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Tiller
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tiller » May 9th, 2016, 8:06 pm

A map for easier viewing that I made from the piecemeal maps in the pdf:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... I-RH84fEZU

nBode
Union Depot
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby nBode » May 9th, 2016, 8:30 pm

^Thanks, Tiller, but it says I need permission.

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Tiller
Foshay Tower
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tiller » May 9th, 2016, 9:24 pm

Forgot about that; fixed!
A second PDF I haven't looked at yet:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... cCvoFayYcg

Sorry for the messy link, I'm on mobile.
Edit: Nvm, it's truncated.

SamHartmen

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby SamHartmen » May 10th, 2016, 8:47 am

They should just run LRT down Shepard Rd with limited stops (about 5 along Shepard Rd) for Quick transit into Downtown St. Paul and then eventually build aBRT down 7th for local riders, and be done with it. The roadway is just to narrow, and they refuse to give up parking so it's the only logical answer given the demands of the community.

bptenor
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby bptenor » May 10th, 2016, 9:26 am

Why can't parking on only one option of the street be an option? It seems all the concepts I've seen show parking on both sides of the street, or none at all.

EOst
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby EOst » May 10th, 2016, 9:42 am

There's no room unless you cut the center turn lane, and if you could do that, you'd really need to increase sidewalks first. Imagine a sidewalk cafe; it'd be like sitting at a table right a few feet away from the roadway on Nicollet Mall, but instead of 10 mph buses it's 25 mph trains. I don't think that works without a buffer of cars, hence the hybrid.


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