Riverview Corridor Streetcar

[David Greene]

Not possible with kids...

[Tiller]

A good post going into different potential layouts on W 7th:

https://erikhare.com/2016/05/04/visions ... t-seventh/

[twincitizen]

Be forewarned, Erik Hare is one of those clowns who think the Green Line should've gone down 94, etc. He likely doesn't want any changes to traffic or parking on West 7th.

[mattaudio]

Eric "Markel" Hare?

[Tiller]

Now that I'm off work, I was able to look at the post more closely - - there are inconsistencies.

I'd say the hybrid-LRV/Streetcar cross section works best. 4 lanes of traffic, 2 that are initially shared (the outer driving lanes), but can be dedicated later on. Parking is kept between the shared lanes and sidewalk, but would be used for stations at station locations (the sidewalks bumping-out). They can then later be turned into bike lanes.

Coincidently, that would leave 2 lanes for traffic sometime in the future. If space is really at a premium as mentioned in the post, squeezing out cars is only the best way forward.

[fehler]

I found the post offputting. "Lest show a bunch of extremes so my middle approach looks like the only logical, brilliant solution!"

[DanB]

PAC meeting materials are up including 2 concepts for the St. Paul portion of the corridor focusing on West 7th street.

http://riverviewcorridor.com/wp-content ... 6-PT-1.pdf

In summary both concepts have a dedicated transit-way in the downtown area on 7th St. until Kellogg Blvd with east/northbound taking 5th street and west/southbound taking 6th before interlining. The first concept has a dedicated transitway down the entire length of 7th St. with one lane/track on either side of the road. The 2nd hybrid option has shared used on 7th between Kellogg and Webster then dedicated ROW down the CP route until it hits 7th again at Alton St. where the route again uses shared use lanes on 7th until turning on Davern St. where it has dedicated lanes down to and west on Shepard Rd.

Personally, I think the hybrid concept is more likely of the two to be chosen as it would disrupt West 7th St. less, I wish the portion from Kellogg to Webster could be dedicated though. Both these concepts obviously wouldn't serve the Ford site and would seem to require using or running above the Hwy 5 bridge.

[Tiller]

A map for easier viewing that I made from the piecemeal maps in the pdf:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... I-RH84fEZU

[nBode]

^Thanks, Tiller, but it says I need permission.

[Tiller]

Forgot about that; fixed!
A second PDF I haven't looked at yet:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... cCvoFayYcg

Sorry for the messy link, I'm on mobile.
Edit: Nvm, it's truncated.

[SamHartmen]

They should just run LRT down Shepard Rd with limited stops (about 5 along Shepard Rd) for Quick transit into Downtown St. Paul and then eventually build aBRT down 7th for local riders, and be done with it. The roadway is just to narrow, and they refuse to give up parking so it's the only logical answer given the demands of the community.

[bptenor]

Why can't parking on only one option of the street be an option? It seems all the concepts I've seen show parking on both sides of the street, or none at all.

[EOst]

There's no room unless you cut the center turn lane, and if you could do that, you'd really need to increase sidewalks first. Imagine a sidewalk cafe; it'd be like sitting at a table right a few feet away from the roadway on Nicollet Mall, but instead of 10 mph buses it's 25 mph trains. I don't think that works without a buffer of cars, hence the hybrid.

[Silophant]

Eh, it works on Hennepin and 1st. I agree that it's not terribly pleasant, but it's not necessarily a dealbreaker.

[BigIdeasGuy]

Looking at the route I think it makes a ton of sense in a lot of different ways but there are a few things that leave me scratching my head.

Is there really enough space for therm to make the 90 degree turn from Cedar to 6th? This seems like it would be super tight if it's even possible at all. I can see the turn from Central Station to 5th happening easily but the turn on to 6th seem like it would be geometrically impossible.

Why is there a need for station both by the Landmark Center and in front of the X. Couldn't you simply put one station right in front of Roy Wilkins to serve both areas?

Why aren't they looking closely at Smith Ave between 5th and Grand. It would address a lot of the challenges presented by W 7th although there would be challenges presented by Children's Hospital but those should be easier to solve.

Why does the hybrid option dip back down to Shepard after the Davern stop? Why couldn't it just cross the bridge like the W 7th route?

[froggie]

Smith is A) pretty narrow, and B) has a lot of driveway/parking ramp access to it. Only way they could potentially make it work is if they make it one-way and only put one track along it (leaving the other track along West 7th).

[mulad]

Ugh, speaking as a 54 rider, those mid-block stop locations by the Roy Wilkins Auditorium and the one across the way on 6th don't feel like good choices. They may be alright if they're shoved basically all the way up to Washington Street, but I wouldn't want to see them any further west.

The existing bus stops immediately across from the Landmark Center on the north and south are pretty busy, as are the ones near the Xcel center (just around the corner on 5th for eastbound buses but across from the Xcel on 7th for westbounds) also see a lot of passengers. The stop at Roy Wilkins and its midblock companion across on 6th don't pick up nearly as many passengers (the midblock stop on 6th between Washington St and 7th St is busier, but I suspect that's mostly just because the stop between Washington and Market Street/Wabasha Street is not a very comfortable space). The ridership for the stop by the Roy is partly to do with the fact that the Ordway expansion closed off that stop for a long time -- It's been back intermittently, though I think it's gone again now. The longer stop spacing there helps get the bus into the core of downtown a bit faster. Besides, it's a second stop on the same block... That's overkill.

Should there be a stop on 7th next to Xcel in addition to one at Washington? I suppose I'd try to push that stop south of Kellogg, but of course there's less potential right-of-way available on that side of the intersection.

It would probably be best for stations on 6th to be on the south side of the street, using left-side boarding. The 54 today has to fight traffic near the intersection of 6th and 7th in order to weave away from the right-hand bus stops over to the left turn lanes. In theory a train could have some sort of protected crossing, but drivers often "block the box" to some extent during rush hours today.

Elevating or tunneling the line would make these location decisions a lot easier. We don't typically talk about elevating lines because skyways block their path downtown, but that could work on 7th. It's harder to make the argument for elevating it on 5th and 6th, though, since that could ruin the view of the Landmark Center unless they start ramping up somwhere west of Washington. An elevated section could also probably work along Smith through the hospital complex -- there are a couple of skyways, but I'd imagine they could be effectively replaced by pedestrian tunnels (which are much cheaper and easier to do across streets than transit tunnels along them).

The steep slope between Wabasha and Cedar still makes me think that a tunnel needs to be given real consideration on this line. It would give much more flexibility for stop locations and would just glide past the congested Kellogg/5th/6th/7th complex, without affecting the view of the Landmark Center or affecting anything on 7th. It's expensive, but a much more practical and useful expense than certain other tunnel ideas out there. A hybrid option to save money and right-of-way is just going to leave the service stuck in traffic.

[DanPatchToget]

So the West 7th Business Association opposes light rail on West 7th. Some businesses along West 7th have signs for signing a petition against light rail. Would they be willing to compromise with the hybrid rail option (streetcar on West 7th, light rail on CP Rail Spur and Blue Line), or is anything having to do with rail considered light rail to them?

[HiawathaGuy]

So the West 7th Business Association opposes light rail on West 7th. Some businesses along West 7th have signs for signing a petition against light rail. Would they be willing to compromise with the hybrid rail option (streetcar on West 7th, light rail on CP Rail Spur and Blue Line), or is anything having to do with rail considered light rail to them?

Most people fear change, that's a reality. What's not a reality is that a petition will really have much impact on this project. It certainly didn't stop the Green Line from happening on University. I wish instead of shoving their heads into the sand and saying "NO!" (pitchforks and petitions in hand), they'd work to figure out how best to serve the needs of the community collectively.

[Silophant]

I was pretty disheartened to see that the St. Vincent de Paul store, a non-profit whose whole mission is to help the poor, is apparently against letting them get to the store easily.