Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Mdcastle
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1209
Joined: March 23rd, 2013, 8:28 am
Location: Bloomington, MN

Re: Riverview LRT

Postby Mdcastle » September 20th, 2014, 4:41 pm

The eastern station is probably for the Fort and the State Park. Both are a pretty long walk from the existing station.

Anondson
IDS Center
Posts: 4646
Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was

Re: Riverview LRT

Postby Anondson » September 20th, 2014, 5:26 pm

For cars, there is no way to run more than one lane in each direction with LRT in the street. This shouldn't be a problem between downtown and 35E, where volumes are at or below 17K...within the capacity range of a 2-lane street with adequate turn lanes.
Pardon a tangent, you mention 17K is enough for 2-lanes plus adequate turn lanes. Is there a source I could point to to back this up? I ask because the Blake Corridor project in Hopkins is 14K now and projected to go to 17K and that is being pointed to as justification to keep it 4-lane plus turn lanes. It feels wrong but I want to go at it with data. :)

User avatar
LRV Op Dude
Union Depot
Posts: 328
Joined: July 7th, 2012, 10:30 am
Contact:

Re: Riverview LRT

Postby LRV Op Dude » September 20th, 2014, 6:32 pm

I like this plan. I am thinking the route through Fort Snelling would be opposed. Also the MOA station would have to add two new bay for trains.
Blog: Old-Twin Cities Transit New-Twin Cities Transit

You Tube: Old, New

AKA: Bus Driver Dude

Mdcastle
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1209
Joined: March 23rd, 2013, 8:28 am
Location: Bloomington, MN

Re: Riverview LRT

Postby Mdcastle » September 20th, 2014, 11:05 pm

10K is normally what justifies four lanes, but there are other factors at work in urban areas; a lot of times there isn't room for turn lanes, for volumes over 10K to around 20K a three lane road with turn lanes can function as well as a four lane road without, although not as well as a four lane road with turn lanes.

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2753
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: Riverview LRT

Postby mulad » September 20th, 2014, 11:11 pm

I think the consensus has put the capacity of three-lane streets (center turn lane) at around 15-18k AADT at this point.

froggie
Rice Park
Posts: 418
Joined: March 7th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Re: Riverview LRT

Postby froggie » September 21st, 2014, 11:21 am

Several factors at play. Rural/suburban/urban is one factor. Number of intersections or access points is another. Frequency of traffic signals can also play a factor.

At a planning level, 10K is commonly used in rural areas, while 15K is a general number for typical urban streets. I mentioned it might be okay along West 7th up to 17K because, with LRT in the median, left turns and driveway turns will be significantly limited, which would increase the overall vehicle capacity of the street.

Since it got mentioned earlier, the "Fort Snelling East" station is for the historic fort...much closer than the existing GSA/Fort Snelling station. I also envisioned that as an additional park-and-ride station, since I HIGHLY DOUBT those parking lots are used to their full capacity.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6368
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby twincitizen » October 9th, 2014, 2:08 pm

Logo drawn, website coming soon: http://finance-commerce.com/transit/201 ... -corridor/ (y'know, the important stuff)

Open Houses:

Wednesday Oct. 29
Union Depot
214 E. 4th St. St. Paul
4-6 p.m.

Wednesday Nov. 5
Nova Classical Academy
1455 Victoria Way W. St Paul
5:30-7:30 p.m.

Image

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4371
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby grant1simons2 » October 12th, 2014, 4:10 pm

I wonder. Since there will now be 2 LRT lines going in and out of the Mall of America, would that be enough to push for a facilities upgrade at the MOA station? Maybe a little bit cleaner and more "modern"?

Edit: I guess there's a phase II already ongoing according to this http://www.lsadesigninc.com/#!mall-of-a ... ter-p/cq5o, can anyone confirm?

Wedgeguy
Capella Tower
Posts: 3404
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 6:59 am

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby Wedgeguy » October 12th, 2014, 4:20 pm

I wonder. Since there will now be 2 LRT lines going in and out of the Mall of America, would that be enough to push for a facilities upgrade at the MOA station? Maybe a little bit cleaner and more "modern"?

Edit: I guess there's a phase II already ongoing according to this http://www.lsadesigninc.com/#!mall-of-a ... ter-p/cq5o, can anyone confirm?
It is in the plans, but last I was thru there it had not started yet. We can only hope that they start it this winter as it would be easy for it to be done away from the elements.

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4371
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby grant1simons2 » October 12th, 2014, 4:27 pm

This has potential to be a really cool station, especially if my dream line BRT ever comes to life. Eden Prairie through Bloomington stopping at all the big corporations on the 494 stretch then stopping at MOA

HiawathaGuy
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1636
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 12:03 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby HiawathaGuy » October 13th, 2014, 12:12 pm

I wonder. Since there will now be 2 LRT lines going in and out of the Mall of America, would that be enough to push for a facilities upgrade at the MOA station? Maybe a little bit cleaner and more "modern"?

Edit: I guess there's a phase II already ongoing according to this http://www.lsadesigninc.com/#!mall-of-a ... ter-p/cq5o, can anyone confirm?
They were looking for TIGER funds, but weren't allotted any this round. Not sure what, if any, next steps are.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6368
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby twincitizen » October 13th, 2014, 1:37 pm

What to make of this? http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projects/hwy5/

Ramsey County ordered Metro Transit to put the B-Line aBRT project on hold indefinitely, until they get through an alternatives analysis for Riverview. Does anyone think for a second they will ask the same of MNDOT and the planned Hwy. 5 bridge rehab?

Other important questions linger:

Would MNDOT in a million years allow the inner lanes of this bridge to be taken from cars and given over to LRT?
Could the existing bridge, even with a spendy rehab, support LRT?

Consensus seems to be that creating a new river crossing into the Fort Snelling area will be difficult to impossible. If Riverview is going to happen, it's going to happen on the current bridge alignment. Something tells me that as bad as some Ramsey/St. Paul leaders want rail, there's going to be a come-to-terms-with-reality moment with MNDOT when they talk about using that bridge.

tl;dr: I think Froggie's/mattaudio's Fort Snelling alignment shown above is pretty realistic and ideally the way you'd want to go. But if you can't put rail on that bridge...then what?

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mattaudio » October 13th, 2014, 1:56 pm

That's where the second deck comes in - it would allow rail and recreational paths at grade to Ft. Snelling and West River Road.

I think we've discussed the Fort Road Bridge Redeck somewhere else, but I can't find the posts. But yes, the existing bridge is awful. My car was totaled on that bridge when someone rear ended me. It's this short stretch where people want to go 55+, but there are major merge problems at each end. Especially eastbound. I have no idea why they don't merge eastbound 5 to one lane, allowing for the ramp from 55/62 to have its own lane.

Edit: My guess is that the reason for the delay is St. Paul's master planning process for the area. I've seen OFFICIAL fetish maps that show a direct connection of the bridge to Shepard Road by way of the vacant Unisys/USBank Riverview site.

St. Studebaker
Block E
Posts: 5
Joined: August 8th, 2014, 12:46 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby St. Studebaker » October 13th, 2014, 2:30 pm

Is there a second deck actually in the plans, or is this just brainstorming/wishful thinking?

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2753
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mulad » October 13th, 2014, 2:39 pm

Not on the bridge itself, though I think an added upper deck could easily align with the top of the "tunnel"/land bridge at the southwest end.

MnDOT's traffic mapping application currently lists the bridge at 56,000 AADT, which would be very high for a 2-lane road -- at the edge of being possible in a "super-two" configuration because of the on/off ramps, I suppose, but still pretty tricky. I'm not sure that widening the bridge to allow for LRT tracks would be significantly worse cost-wise than replacing existing lanes.

Does anyone know the cost of updating the Washington Avenue Bridge for the Green Line? This bridge is almost exactly the same length, so one would expect similar costs, though I could envision a number of different ways of configuring things -- add a new rail deck above the roadway, widen the existing deck to accommodate LRT tracks, or even suspend the tracks below the existing deck somehow (in the latter case, I've thought about having the tracks turn at the southwestern end to use the old Milwaukee Road railbed along the bluff edge for a short distance to get closer to the existing Fort Snelling station and avoid tunneling, but that might be more trouble than it's worth).

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1364
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby acs » October 13th, 2014, 2:48 pm

I think there's a very good reason why the study area includes the Ford plant and the related rail spur. If this is going to be LRT then it's going over the river on the Ford Parkway bridge with a stop at the former plant to fulfill St. Paul's TOD fetishes. As much as we'd like to fantasize the fort road bridge is just too old and too narrow to make all but the most expensive options possible.

On a side note, what are the chances this corridor has the ridership to warrant LRT over buses? At a high level this certainly is a more "urban" corridor than the 4 in front of it in line. With the blue line carrying 30k per day based mostly on commuters, it certainly seems likely that a similar service from the Bloomington park and rides to DT St. Paul could capture at least the 20k needed for LRT.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mattaudio » October 13th, 2014, 2:52 pm

Except for the upper deck, the Fort Road bridge looks to be similar vintage and design as the Washington Ave Bridge that carries the green line. A 60s-era girder bridge without structural redundancy. The added supports on the piers helped the University bridge (it's no longer an M) and I'm guessing the same thing could be done with the Fort Road Bridge to upgrade it.

The Ford Parkway bridge was just redecked from the arches up, so I'd be surprised that is chosen for LRT anytinme soon.

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2753
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby mulad » October 13th, 2014, 2:56 pm

The Ford Parkway bridge had streetcars going over it back in the day, but I'm doubtful that the rebuilt bridge has the same level of support any longer (and light-rail trains, especially of the multi-car variety, would probably still be a lot heavier than what the bridge had ever been designed for).

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6368
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby twincitizen » October 13th, 2014, 3:15 pm

I think there's a very good reason why the study area includes the Ford plant and the related rail spur. If this is going to be LRT then it's going over the river on the Ford Parkway bridge with a stop at the former plant to fulfill St. Paul's TOD fetishes. As much as we'd like to fantasize the fort road bridge is just too old and too narrow to make all but the most expensive options possible.

On a side note, what are the chances this corridor has the ridership to warrant LRT over buses? At a high level this certainly is a more "urban" corridor than the 4 in front of it in line. With the blue line carrying 30k per day based mostly on commuters, it certainly seems likely that a similar service from the Bloomington park and rides to DT St. Paul could capture at least the 20k needed for LRT.
The idea that Riverview LRT would go through the Ford property (and over the Ford Parkway bridge?) and not to the airport/MOA is...odd. (Not saying it could never happen, I've just never heard that before). This has always been about "completing the triangle", has it not? If there are already concerns about ridership, I think you can forget about a $1 Billion LRT line that doesn't go directly to the airport/MOA. (CTIB recently threw out the $1B figure, though that's a rough, rough estimate. We'll know a lot more in 2015.)

I think it's going to be decades until the Ford site is built out completely. It's still not even clear which portions of the site are suitable for residential development. And honestly, the opportunity to build out a brand new, in-city neighborhood, in a nice part of town with decent schools (right?) is going to be enough of a draw on its own. I don't think the Ford site needs rail transit traversing through it to attract developers and home buyers. The proximity to transit is going to be pretty great already, with the A-Line connecting to both the Blue Line and Green Line, not to mention Riverview/W 7th a short distance to the south.

There could certainly be a short line shuttle service through the Ford property to connect with Riverview, but I just can't fathom that being the "mainline" operation. Remember, the A Line will be serving Ford Parkway, connecting folks over the river to the Blue Line (along with several local routes).

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1533
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby talindsay » October 13th, 2014, 3:41 pm

I think the assumption behind the Ford site discussion is that it would cross the Ford Bridge and connect in to the existing Hiawatha tracks somewhere south of 46th. This routing has several advantages, most notably reducing the total trackage needed (maximizing reuse of existing track on Hiawatha), plenty of space on the Ford bridge, and relatively easy and cheap routing through the Ford site. It has major drawbacks too though, including a very difficult interchange with Hiawatha. The Ford routing probably hits more higher-density nodes than the Fort Road routing, though that's just a gut feeling and not backed by data.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests