Riverview Corridor Streetcar

[MNdible]

Isn't that why people discuss things on a message board?

I'm assuming that was said with delicious sarcasm?

[MN Fats]

Sorry I've missed the recent events here, but I thought this was going to be Bus over Rail? Or has something changed? What are the chances it actually ends up being a new LRT line? Over 50%?

[talindsay]

Sorry I've missed the recent events here, but I thought this was going to be Bus over Rail? Or has something changed? What are the chances it actually ends up being a new LRT line? Over 50%?

Certainly nobody here knows. Based on news and reports from Ramsey County, St. Paul, and the Met Council it still looks likely to be a bus line; but the CTIB recently published in their long-term financial forecasts the substantial financial resources necessary to do this as LRT, with CTIB covering 60% of the cost. Since the power of the purse is significant and the group with the purse is saying they want to plan for funding it as LRT, I'd say it's certainly back in play as an LRT corridor.

[FISHMANPET]

Well, just look at this logo, I can see what they want the outcome to be.

And these early meetings might be a good time to start influencing the decision one way or the other.

Logo drawn, website coming soon: http://finance-commerce.com/transit/201 ... -corridor/ (y'know, the important stuff)

Open Houses:

Wednesday Oct. 29
Union Depot
214 E. 4th St. St. Paul
4-6 p.m.

Wednesday Nov. 5
Nova Classical Academy
1455 Victoria Way W. St Paul
5:30-7:30 p.m.

[mattaudio]

A never-ending rail vehicle!

[HiawathaGuy]

However, I have wondered how it might be possible to run the connection from the Ford Bridge through the Veteran's Home land, cross Minnehaha Creek (there's a bridge there now that would have to be reinforced or rebuilt), then turn south along the sound wall, building up to a flyover near 52nd Street & Minnehaha Ave, where the current Blue line turns and follows the center of Minnehaha. I've drawn it on the map: HERE. I still don't think there's enough space at that intersection for the width needed to interline the tracks, and ramp up to a flyover. However - this could be the one spot along Hiawatha where a line could cross at-grade relatively easily... I'm not sure how much support that would get from MnDOT or the neighborhood, but it would allow for a pretty easy connection to the Ford Bridge.

Using the Blue/Green connection as a rough guide, you would either need to close one direction of Hiawatha Ave or you'd have to take right-of-way on one side from 52nd to a little south of 53rd, for an at-grade crossing of 55. For a flyover, you'd need a minimum of 400ft south of 55 for the flyover approach and then additional length for the interlining, which would basically bring the right-of-way or street-closure needs all the way to 54th. The flyover approach part would also require shutting down both directions of Hiawatha south of 52nd if the goal is to minimize right-of-way acquisition.

The Devil is always in the details. Thanks AJ - I knew there had to be a lot of technical reasons as to why this couldn't work, so you've helped bring those to light.

"Just add another deck to the fifty year old bridge. That should be easy," said no engineer ever.

...said the George Washington Bridge engineers in the 1960s. Though to be fair, GWB was 30 years old by then and not 50.

For the record though, the architects envisioned and planned for the second, lower deck [LINK], unlike the Fort Road bridge crossing the Mississippi River.

[acs]

So much has changed since 2002 when this line was last studied. Light rail ridership has blown away expectations while the Red Line BRT has been a dud. Remember, Bottineau was originally planned to be BRT until the Blue line showed our Rail Bias. If projected ridership exceeds 20,000 rides per day then it will be more economical to choose LRT over BRT, so the question is whether this corridor can exceed that level of demand.

[mattaudio]

Some of this bridge discussion is generalized and may need to move, but I'm not exactly sure where.

Since we're talking about hypothetically upgrading an old steel plate girder for LRT, Google Streetview has a cool mid-construction look at the Washington Ave Bridge modifications for the Green Line. Granted, it looks to be much simpler upgrading the existing lower traffic deck for LRT, compared to adding a new deck above or below for rail.



By comparison, the Fort Road Bridge has two columns per pier, with more of a cantilever, despite the steel structure looking nearly identical to the pre-Green Line Washington Ave Bridge. http://www.johnweeks.com/river_mississi ... /ms09.html

[fehler]

Coming in late, if we are going to need a new river crossing, how about pushing it further north, say connecting Randolph Ave and 42nd Street? Dump the existing 46th Street Station, using that area as a fly-over bridge, move the Blue Line Station to the east side of Hiawatha at about 45th. Interline cross between 45th/43rd, Blue Line flys back over Hiawatha over the 42nd Street intersection (removing another grade crossing)

Pros: Blue Line no longer at grade on 46th Street. Removal of two major grade crossings. Limited taking of SFHs (except for a block of Digit Ave). Could add Riverview station near 42nd/42nd (it is the answer).

Cons: No Walgreens at 46th (pro?) and other industrial properties. Have to rebuild 46th Street Station (but may be better connected to Longfellow neighborhood in the process). Space on 42nd Street limited, taking homes likely (and possible grade issues). Oh, and the costs of a whole new river bridge and two LRT flyovers.

And I don't know enough St. Paul to know what issues may arise on Randolph Ave (Randolph intersection closed with East River Road, but should still be able to leave S Mt Curve open. Don't know where to connect Randolph to Highland Park.

[fehler]

Ok, sketched up my idea. LINK

[David Greene]

A new river crossing is probably non-starter as it's a national park.

[MN Fats]

And going through the Highland Park neighborhood is highly questionable. There's no room on Cretin. And Mount Curve residents would surely rather have grass and trees on their boulevard. They'd put up a good fight.

[talindsay]

Ignoring the obvious fights, expenses, national park issue, added time, there's the basic problem that Mt. Curve is a non-starter and Cretin is incredibly narrow down there. I think if Penn Ave N isn't deemed LRT-compatible there's no way Cretin south of Grand would ever make the cut.

[fehler]

Taking a hunk out of either Minnehaha Regional Park or Ft. Snelling National Historic Landmark are also non-starters, but we haven't stopped talking about them.

The only thing that seems to work is crossing at 46th Street/Ford Parkway, flying over Hwy 55 and co-line going north to Downtown Minneapolis, rather then south to MSP/MOA. Or build a big U-Turn flyover bridge around 42nd/43rd Street.

[mattaudio]

Yet the study is DT St. Paul to MOA. I'm guessing they'll find a plan to route it via the Fort Road bridge. maybe underneath the existing bridge deck so it tunnels under Ft. Snelling.

[twincitizen]

I mean, yeah, CTIB has to find a way to spend $1B on this line somehow

Wouldn't that be convenient...putting Hennepin County taxpayers on the hook for a tunnel (and/or expensive bridge retrofit) that almost exclusively benefits St. Paul / Ramsey County residents.

Given the ready-made RR corridor that will likely be used for a significant portion of the line, few bridges (other than the obvious over the river), I'm actually surprised they forecast $1B because the line is so much shorter than any others we're planning.

Of course, you have to talk about this line in 2025-ish dollars, so that will inflate the number, but remember that Bottineau is right around $1B-$1.1B in 2022$ (I think...) and is a much longer line.

If the early studies can show a number under $1B, I'd say this is probably a go for rail over BRT. If they can't answer the river crossing issue, then it's probably BRT.

Even accounting for some screwy routing around Ft. Snelling and using the track behind Sibley Plaza to Edgecumbe (i.e. not taking a straight RR ROW shot from Union Depot), the lengthiest route you can come up with is 8.0 - 8.3 miles. That's considerably shorter than any other LRT segment we've built or planned. There's no way this should cost $1B unless the river crossing alone is in the hundreds of millions (or if we're including a bunch of road improvements in the budget, a la University).

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/44.9473 ... 893532!3e0
(Ignore actual routing obviously, as it depends on streets. The purpose was to show the maximum possible length, not any specific routing)

[talindsay]

Heck Central only cost $950m, and it's longer and more complex. Without the bridge aspect I think this could be a $400-500m project. The bridge issue adds substantially to the cost and complexity. I do think St. Paul will push for the Ford Bridge crossing, and Met Council will push for Fort Road, based on their differing priorities. I expect the river crossing is easier at Ford but the interchange with Hiawatha is easier at Fort Road, so I'm not going to bet which route would be more likely until we know more.

Of course, remember this line will involve not one but *two* interchanges - we're all focusing on the junction with Hiawatha (because it looks harder) but they almost certainly will want to connect this with the Green line to run into SPUD and the maintenance facility. I expect the easiest way at that end is a junction just past StP Central station, with Riverview extending farther southwest along 4th. But that too would need to be a simple double-turnout junction as opposed to the big fancy junction they put in Cedar-Riverside, since it will be quite constrained.

[mulad]

One big reason for the funky Blue-Green junction is the inclusion of a "pocket track" for staging an extra train. They included it in the junction rather than having an extra siding or spur nearby. It was probably overkill since the Franklin Avenue maintenance base is so close. The Lowertown OMF is close enough to a potential junction in downtown St. Paul that an extra track wouldn't really be necessary, and it's already been pointed out that there's an extra pocket track by the Fort Snelling station, which could work fine to support a new junction there.

The simplest way to have two double-track lines join is to use two switches and one diamond. To make it fully redundant, add either a double crossover or pair of single crossovers on each leg -- it should be possible to keep trains running if any single switch gets stuck (assuming it isn't stuck partway between the two directions, though even some of those could be bypassed).

[HuskyGrad]

One big reason for the funky Blue-Green junction is the inclusion of a "pocket track" for staging an extra train. They included it in the junction rather than having an extra siding or spur nearby. It was probably overkill since the Franklin Avenue maintenance base is so close. The Lowertown OMF is close enough to a potential junction in downtown St. Paul that an extra track wouldn't really be necessary, and it's already been pointed out that there's an extra pocket track by the Fort Snelling station, which could work fine to support a new junction there.

The simplest way to have two double-track lines join is to use two switches and one diamond. To make it fully redundant, add either a double crossover or pair of single crossovers on each leg -- it should be possible to keep trains running if any single switch gets stuck (assuming it isn't stuck partway between the two directions, though even some of those could be bypassed).

Diamonds are to be avoided at all costs. They're expensive to maintain due to the custom design of each crossing diamond.

[mulad]

At all costs? No, these things aren't infinitely expensive. They probably need to be custom-made a lot of the time, so they're more expensive, but you're basically implying that they're impossible to do, which is clearly not the case.

I suppose that partly explains the Blue-Green junction too -- you can replace a shallow diamond like that with a pair of switches. It requires a bit more room, though. Depending on how tight the space is, a diamond might still make sense.