Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

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mattaudio
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » January 27th, 2017, 4:04 pm

Or, in addition to Riverview rail from MSP/MOA to DT St. Paul...

Arterial BRT from MSP/MOA to Edgecumbe, St. Paul Road, Cleveland Ave, then east down Randolph or Grand to DT St. Paul. It would actually play well with the A Line, provide plenty of St. Paul neighborhoods including Ford Site/ Highland Park and others with MSP and Downtown, and would connect to Riverview on both ends.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 27th, 2017, 4:48 pm

Not really arguing for anything here, but I'll just note that my agreement of a Ford Site branch in my earlier post was aimed at terminating somewhere on site, not crossing the river as Riverview by itself to go to MOA (for now). I have stated before I think the need to directly serve people along the Blue Line or Riverview corridor heading to MSP/MOA is overrated based on home/job location pairs along those areas where different service options might make sense. But I get that there's a cultural desire to complete the triangle and people who do want to get to MSP/MOA will be the most vocal about a trip that's 5, 10 minutes longer (even if we could also run them an express bus like I ride on 94 many days between the downtowns without complaining). I don't think a fixed-guideway ont he Ford Site has to skip by the existing commercial and planned job center as much as the map shows, but that's just me. I also think people are discounting how the kludge of using all the existing bus routes that cross the river on Ford/46th or a shuttle from Ford Site to Riverview paired with another transfer if they're coming from anywhere outside the walkshed of those places makes transit very unappealing for what could be a good number of trips. But, I'm also not a transit modeler. I just hope we're not ruling anything for the future.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby BigIdeasGuy » January 27th, 2017, 9:07 pm

I'm surprised that LRT has the space to make the 90 degree turn going from Cedar on to 6th but I'll believe the experts on that.

Having driven though the corner of Kellogg and 7th on many nights when there were events at the X, even when there is a less than capacity crowd, I firmly believe that the Smith Ave Transit Mall is a much better option operationally than a pair running on 7th and Smith. With the thousand and thousands of people who all try to leave the X using the 7th and Kellogg intersection plus cars, taxis, Ubers, etc. I don't think it is feasible to operate any type of fix guideway transit line on W 7th during that time. The hospital clearly should have a say in the use of Smith Ave but I hope all parties can come to an agree to use Smith exclusively compared to W 7th.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby amiller92 » January 30th, 2017, 10:15 am

I've not paid much attention to this at all, but noticed yesterday that three houses along 46th have big "no tracks on 46th" signs.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » January 30th, 2017, 10:19 am

How about "No More Than Three Lanes On 46th"

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby matt91486 » February 1st, 2017, 10:33 am

Looking at the alternatives for area D, 46th clearly seems to make the most sense and add the least time to the trip, so hopefully they don't drum up too much support if it ends up going through the Ford site.

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Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby FISHMANPET » February 13th, 2017, 2:44 pm

I'm hearing reports that people are putting out "no rail on 46th" signs, anyone have any details on that? Is it just people that don't want transit at all, or don't want a train by their house, or something else?
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » February 13th, 2017, 2:57 pm

The signs specifically say "No Tracks on 46th". All of the big banners that I saw were on fences or garages on the south side of 46th St. There are at least 3, maybe as many as 4-5 banners total between Minnehaha Avenue and the river.

Presumably these homeowners are all quite used to the A Line and half dozen other bus routes that pass by their houses frequently, and are just opposed to the idea of train tracks. Given the nearest example available to them (Blue Line), I can sympathize as to why they wouldn't want that next to their houses. In reality, the Riverview line would be much more streetcar-like than LRT here, running in shared lanes, using existing/modified A Line stops, etc.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby FISHMANPET » February 13th, 2017, 3:50 pm

I live 500 feet from the blue line and I'm genuinely curious what it is exactly about that I'm not supposed to like.
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » February 13th, 2017, 4:03 pm

Pretty enormous difference between 500 feet and 20 feet.

My intention was to argue both sides...I totally understand these specific homeowners not wanting train tracks 20-25 feet from their bedroom windows, but I also imagine that many of them are picturing Blue Line trains (very railroad-like and imposing), rather than a mixed-traffic tram/streetcar (albeit probably a 90' one instead of a 66' one)

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 13th, 2017, 4:27 pm

Even at 20-25' away from their window, I find it hard to imagine (even 3-car full LRT) trains moving at 20-25 mph every 5 minutes (one in each direction) would be worse than the traffic on 46th St. I know it's not helpful to go and tell people how to feel (so, I won't), but haven't many studies shown that ambient train noise is less grating than vehicle noises? People generally prefer the sound of a train's acceleration, steel wheel noise, or even bells to bus farts, cars with squealing alternator belts, worn out brakes, or meatheads goosing it at a green light.

All of this ignores the very tangible benefits of being (potentially) 25' from a light rail that takes you directly to the MOA, MSP, or downtown StP.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby MNdible » February 13th, 2017, 4:39 pm

I'd say the bigger issue for those immediate neighbors will be vibrations, not noise. Assuming that there are no sharp curves that would cause wheel-to-rail squealing.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby DanPatchToget » February 13th, 2017, 6:32 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:
February 13th, 2017, 4:27 pm
Even at 20-25' away from their window, I find it hard to imagine (even 3-car full LRT) trains moving at 20-25 mph every 5 minutes (one in each direction) would be worse than the traffic on 46th St. I know it's not helpful to go and tell people how to feel (so, I won't), but haven't many studies shown that ambient train noise is less grating than vehicle noises? People generally prefer the sound of a train's acceleration, steel wheel noise, or even bells to bus farts, cars with squealing alternator belts, worn out brakes, or meatheads goosing it at a green light.

All of this ignores the very tangible benefits of being (potentially) 25' from a light rail that takes you directly to the MOA, MSP, or downtown StP.
Also motorcycles, cars with crappy mufflers, and diesel trucks.

Granted if I lived in one of those homes I would like to know what the noise and vibration impacts are, but if everything checks out okay then I'd be fine with it. But of course people automatically hate change.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Vagueperson » February 13th, 2017, 7:52 pm

being 25' from a train doesn't mean you are close to a station.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 13th, 2017, 9:49 pm

Maybe can the people who like cities and transit and all the great things that come with them start the argument on a forum about cities and transit and etc siding with the people who are pretty much fine with the status quo regarding cities (which is, tbh, not so great in America)? There are real live humans living feet from streetcars and at-grade light rail and even elevated rail in this country (heck, even just a few miles north) and the outcomes aren't so bad. I hate to say this, but we give a little too much deference to people in detached homes (who happen to be, generally speaking, whiter and richer than your average resident - that goes 5,000% for the SWLRT Done Right folks), and give a little too much leeway on the environmental side to non-transit projects.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Silophant » February 13th, 2017, 10:02 pm


talindsay
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby talindsay » February 14th, 2017, 8:06 am

RailBaronYarr wrote:
February 13th, 2017, 4:27 pm
All of this ignores the very tangible benefits of being (potentially) 25' from a light rail that takes you directly to the MOA, MSP, or downtown StP.
Well, living by the *tracks* doesn't give you that benefit. Living by a *station* gives you that benefit. If you're living at say, 46th and 46th, you don't get much benefit from it going right by your house since you have to walk a ways and cross a major highway to get to the nearest station. Light rail *stations* are almost all benefit with very little drawback, but light rail *tracks* are all drawback except in as much as they allow stations.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 14th, 2017, 9:02 am

Except for the fact that all the most promising alternatives for transit crossing the Ford Bridge have a stop at 43rd, so no one along 46th St would ever be more than 1,000 ft (3-4 mins walking) from a station (of course one is across a major highway - the sort of thing that's far worse than LRT tracks IMO).

Hey everyone, isn't transit really great?

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tiller » February 14th, 2017, 9:27 am

If residents don't like light rail that much, "WHY DON'T YOU MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE" -- to appropriate a phrase. :D

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby MNdible » February 14th, 2017, 11:21 am

RBY, I don't think anybody here is saying that this shouldn't get built*, just that being an immediately adjacent homeowner could be kind of sucky. I know it's fun to offer pronouncements and all, but dial it back.

*Except for everybody on here who is saying that it shouldn't get built because they think the Fort Snelling route is better.


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