Riverview Corridor Streetcar

[twincitizen]

Open Houses:

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... pen-houses

[MN Fats]

So how does the Southwest LRT extension turmoil affect the prospects of Riverview LRT?

[froggie]

Probably too early to tell.

[twincitizen]

Yeah I'd say Riverview is actually fortunate to be so early in it's planning process that it's not really at that attention level yet. By the time a route (and mode) is nailed down for Riverview, everything with Southwest should be cleared up and well on its way to actually entering construction. Depending on the routing (of course) and price tag, I could see this line facing little opposition (aside from the ever-present anti-rail contingent), at least compared to other projects. CTIB has identified it as a Tier I priority corridor, and I think St. Paul and Ramsey County will be strongly pushing for it. From a regional perspective, completing the "triangle" makes too much sense.

[PigsEye]

If the mode was selected as Streetcar could such a line be able to run downtown St. Paul to the airport (at least a stop at one terminal given riders could easily transfer by using the Blue line) and then connect to the MOA station that is convenient for riders to transfer from Blue and Red lines? (meaning it's gotta have a station near the existing LRT) Then the line could be expanded westward down American (provided that route is also selected as Streetcar) making a new transit corridor.

If that's not possible it does seem pretty disappointing to build such a short LRT line that won't offer to much more options for mobility beyond saving riders 20-30 min travel time.

[Mdcastle]

I'm thinking the assumption is if LRT is selected it will go to the airport, if Streetcar is selected then not.

[MN Fats]

@pigseye I doubt LRT would save any time over the current bus route. Let alone 20-30 mins.

[Silophant]

I also doubt it would save much time, but the Green Line doesn't save much time over the 50 either. I never rode the 55, but I doubt it was much slower than the Blue Line, was it? Either way, the LRT lines we've built weren't really speed upgrades, but rather capacity and reliability upgrades. The same will almost certainly be true of Riverview LRT.

[mulad]

Was there ever a bus that aped the Blue Line's route? I don't know of one, but I didn't have a great awareness of the Metro Transit system back then. There was also a big restructuring of the bus system around 2000 which unified the bus numbering scheme and got rid of duplicates between St. Paul and Minneapolis, further confusing things.

The most similar route today is probably route 7, which goes down Minnehaha Ave part of the way (a few blocks east of Hiawatha).

[Silophant]

I was a middle-schooler in rural southern Minnesota when the Blue Line opened, so I have no idea what bus service was like on Hiawatha before that. I had assumed that it replaced the previous route 55 like the Green Line replaced the 50, but I guess not. Learn something every day.

[Tcmetro]

The Blue Line had no direct predecessor, but rather a multitude of routes that covered the various travel markets. The main routes were the 7, which ran along Minnehaha, served the VA, Fort Snelling, the Airport, and the MOA with a 20 minute frequency, as well as the 180, which connected Nicollet Mall to the MOA via 35W and operated every 15-20 minutes. Other routes, like the 19 (now the 22) on 28th Ave S operated to MOA along Hwys. 62 and 77, and the 22 (now the 7) operated along 34th Ave S. Also, the 20 (now currently the 9) turned east at 46th St and traveled into Highland Park.

The 7, 19, and 22 also had peak express trips that would take Hiawatha Ave into downtown. Other peak patterns operated, such as peak hour MVTA local buses being extended past MOA to the Airport, VA, and Fort Snelling.

Lastly, St. Paul service was rationalized as well. The 84 previously operated through Sibley Plaza to the Airport and MOA, but when the Blue Line opened, service was cut back to Sibley Plaza and the Minneapolis branch was introduced. The 54 was more of an express route, stopping only at Maynard and Albion before taking 35E into St. Paul, and the 69 was the 7th St local service. The 54 went to the airport and the MOA, and the 69 went to the VA and Fort Snelling. Both routes were combined to make a high-frequency limited stop route, and transfers could be made between the 54 and the Blue Line for St. Paul - VA/Ft. Snelling commuters.

Metro Transit still has all the documents from the restructuring available on its website as well, for all those interested:
http://www.metrotransit.org/central-sou ... uring.aspx

[PigsEye]

I'm thinking the assumption is if LRT is selected it will go to the airport, if Streetcar is selected then not.

Thanks for the info. What about if the route was BRT. Specifically dedicated ROW which could be a Red Line extension! It seems so silly to have such short transit lines right next to each other. I think it would attract some more riders from the suburbs if they knew the Red line took them all the way to the Airport (only one stop) and downtown St. Paul all without having to switch buses.

Also I was implying the saved transit time was from taking the Green/Blue line vs a direct LRT line from downtown St. Paul to MOA.

[twincitizen]

Considering the MOA Transit Station isn't going to be replaced (but will be upgraded/improved in place), I'd ask "How much does it really matter if anything that goes "through" it is interlined or not?" Whether Red Line or Riverview or local bus, it is going to be making a loop and spending at least a few minutes going in & out of MOA Station. This is the ideal place to have people transfer. It's the single busiest transfer hub in the region. This seems to be one of those cases where people get too wrapped up in worrying about what the system looks like on a map, rather than how it functions for the user. Stop trying to interline the Red Line. It's operated by MVTA and it's not happening. The Red Line is a de facto extension of the Blue Line, nothing more. Perhaps they should have named it the turquoise / aqua / baby blue Line to drive home that point.

[PigsEye]

Considering the MOA Transit Station isn't going to be replaced (but will be upgraded/improved in place), I'd ask "How much does it really matter if anything that goes "through" it is interlined or not?" Whether Red Line or Riverview or local bus, it is going to be making a loop and spending at least a few minutes going in & out of MOA Station. This is the ideal place to have people transfer. It's the single busiest transfer hub in the region. This seems to be one of those cases where people get too wrapped up in worrying about what the system looks like on a map, rather than how it functions for the user. Stop trying to interline the Red Line. It's operated by MVTA and it's not happening. The Red Line is a de facto extension of the Blue Line, nothing more. Perhaps they should have named it the turquoise / aqua / baby blue Line to drive home that point.

There is a lot of value in marketing a transit line that goes from the suburbs directly into downtown St. Paul vs. to a transit hub then connecting to a secondary line. Eliminating that wasted waiting time for transfers would be nice too. If the entire bus is emptying out and 1/3 are going to Minneapolis and 1/3 are going to St. Paul why not see if it feasible to keep that 1/3 on the bus and continue onward down the line? The single busiest transfer hub in the region is in a parking ramp, and much of the transfers are unnecessary. SMH. It's not just what the color of the map looks like, mildly insulting you suggesting that was my main motivation. Keep in mind this line is being used mainly from people coming from households with cars in the suburbs. inconveniencing and confusing them with transferring to aBRT B Line (if it ever is built) is not as big of a motivation for people to hop on the bus than had the line been a direct route to a downtown. It's mostly a commuter line, and having that commuter line actually go to where people want to go (place of work) is the same reason Northstar failed as the line wasn't completed. The Riverview corridor could be a wonderful to the Red line, provided the desired bus frequencies relatively matchup.

[froggie]

Theoretically, I agree with PigsEye and the concept of through-running...it has higher ridership potential and significant operational savings. The problem would be it'd require multi-agency cooperation and careful redesign of the MOA Transit Station.

[mulad]

Just as some food for thought, I'll mention that there aren't many crossings of the Minnesota River. It's important for there to be "bridgehead" locations for transferring between services somewhere pretty close to each end of bridges like the one for Cedar Ave/MN-77. There's also a major crossing of two highways nearby, since I-494 crosses east-wes (and I-35W is only 2.5 miles away, and MN-5 branches off to St. Paul pretty close by as well). Of course, this is one of the things that made this spot a good location for the mall.

I'm still irked that most bus transit centers require buses to get off the highway and circle around for a while, adding significant amounts of travel time. Through-running services basically need to skip past these major nodes in order to avoid the penalty, but they also lose ridership because of it.

Just imagine for a moment if MN-77 and I-494 were rail lines instead -- it would be perfectly natural for the current interchange between the two highways to be a major station instead. People would be transferring between the two lines, possibly by going from one level to the next. It could also be a major hub for buses, and still only take up a fraction of the space needed for the cloverleaf. The mall might have been built there instead of its current location (well, if the nearby runways could be avoided, anyway).

We're stuck with the current MOA transit center location (I still wish the tracks had been realigned along Lindau, but whatever). I'm happy that the new one is planned to have better internal circulation, but I hope similar logic gets applied to the routing of buses as they get close to the mall. The Red Line still makes a goofy loop over to the 28th Avenue Station -- I've always figured it would make more sense for the northbound bus to go up to Lindau and make a clockwise loop around the mall.

An alternative is to allow buses to take left turns off of northbound 24th Ave into the transit center. I think that's planned with the redesign.

Anyway, I didn't have much more point than to try and find some context.

[mulad]

There was a community meeting last week for this that I went to. Two more are happening today and tomorrow -- If you get a chance, go and fill out one of the comment sheets -- one side of them has a map to draw/trace your preferred route.

July 7
Union Depot – Room 120
214 East 4th Street, Saint Paul
4:00 – 6:00 pm
Presentation at 4:30 pm

July 8
Sholom Home
740 Kay Avenue, Saint Paul
5:00 – 7:00 pm
Presentation at 5:30 pm

[VAStationDude]

I got to the spud meeting a few minutes after five. I and a couple other community members milled among the ten planners and consultants. The one guy I spoke with agreed with my preferred route from the union depot train deck to 46th street station via the cp rail line and Ford site.

[mattaudio]

Is there a reason to prefer the Union Depot train deck rather than the existing Green Line station out front? Seems like under the concourse would be easier to connect with the Ford Spur, but it would miss much of downtown.

[Mikey]

It depends on if you see this line as a commuter line (fast travel) or an actual transit line.

I prefer splitting off the green line at Cedar and taking 5th to 7th, then 7th at least to Randolph (actually Toronto...) Leave the train deck for heavy trains