urbanMSP

The signs specifically say "No Tracks on 46th". All of the big banners that I saw were on fences or garages on the south side of 46th St. There are at least 3, maybe as many as 4-5 banners total between Minnehaha Avenue and the river.

Presumably these homeowners are all quite used to the A Line and half dozen other bus routes that pass by their houses frequently, and are just opposed to the idea of train tracks. Given the nearest example available to them (Blue Line), I can sympathize as to why they wouldn't want that next to their houses. In reality, the Riverview line would be much more streetcar-like than LRT here, running in shared lanes, using existing/modified A Line stops, etc.

I live 500 feet from the blue line and I'm genuinely curious what it is exactly about that I'm not supposed to like.

Pretty enormous difference between 500 feet and 20 feet.

My intention was to argue both sides...I totally understand these specific homeowners not wanting train tracks 20-25 feet from their bedroom windows, but I also imagine that many of them are picturing Blue Line trains (very railroad-like and imposing), rather than a mixed-traffic tram/streetcar (albeit probably a 90' one instead of a 66' one)

Even at 20-25' away from their window, I find it hard to imagine (even 3-car full LRT) trains moving at 20-25 mph every 5 minutes (one in each direction) would be worse than the traffic on 46th St. I know it's not helpful to go and tell people how to feel (so, I won't), but haven't many studies shown that ambient train noise is less grating than vehicle noises? People generally prefer the sound of a train's acceleration, steel wheel noise, or even bells to bus farts, cars with squealing alternator belts, worn out brakes, or meatheads goosing it at a green light.

All of this ignores the very tangible benefits of being (potentially) 25' from a light rail that takes you directly to the MOA, MSP, or downtown StP.

I'd say the bigger issue for those immediate neighbors will be vibrations, not noise. Assuming that there are no sharp curves that would cause wheel-to-rail squealing.

Even at 20-25' away from their window, I find it hard to imagine (even 3-car full LRT) trains moving at 20-25 mph every 5 minutes (one in each direction) would be worse than the traffic on 46th St. I know it's not helpful to go and tell people how to feel (so, I won't), but haven't many studies shown that ambient train noise is less grating than vehicle noises? People generally prefer the sound of a train's acceleration, steel wheel noise, or even bells to bus farts, cars with squealing alternator belts, worn out brakes, or meatheads goosing it at a green light.

All of this ignores the very tangible benefits of being (potentially) 25' from a light rail that takes you directly to the MOA, MSP, or downtown StP.

Also motorcycles, cars with crappy mufflers, and diesel trucks.

Granted if I lived in one of those homes I would like to know what the noise and vibration impacts are, but if everything checks out okay then I'd be fine with it. But of course people automatically hate change.

being 25' from a train doesn't mean you are close to a station.

Maybe can the people who like cities and transit and all the great things that come with them start the argument on a forum about cities and transit and etc siding with the people who are pretty much fine with the status quo regarding cities (which is, tbh, not so great in America)? There are real live humans living feet from streetcars and at-grade light rail and even elevated rail in this country (heck, even just a few miles north) and the outcomes aren't so bad. I hate to say this, but we give a little too much deference to people in detached homes (who happen to be, generally speaking, whiter and richer than your average resident - that goes 5,000% for the SWLRT Done Right folks), and give a little too much leeway on the environmental side to non-transit projects.

Heck, even less than a mile south!

All of this ignores the very tangible benefits of being (potentially) 25' from a light rail that takes you directly to the MOA, MSP, or downtown StP.

Well, living by the *tracks* doesn't give you that benefit. Living by a *station* gives you that benefit. If you're living at say, 46th and 46th, you don't get much benefit from it going right by your house since you have to walk a ways and cross a major highway to get to the nearest station. Light rail *stations* are almost all benefit with very little drawback, but light rail *tracks* are all drawback except in as much as they allow stations.

Except for the fact that all the most promising alternatives for transit crossing the Ford Bridge have a stop at 43rd, so no one along 46th St would ever be more than 1,000 ft (3-4 mins walking) from a station (of course one is across a major highway - the sort of thing that's far worse than LRT tracks IMO).

Hey everyone, isn't transit really great?

If residents don't like light rail that much, "WHY DON'T YOU MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE" -- to appropriate a phrase.

RBY, I don't think anybody here is saying that this shouldn't get built*, just that being an immediately adjacent homeowner could be kind of sucky. I know it's fun to offer pronouncements and all, but dial it back.

*Except for everybody on here who is saying that it shouldn't get built because they think the Fort Snelling route is better.

How about tunnel under every home that doesn't want to hear train noise...........................paid for by those homeowners?

David Levinson's take on the process as of today:

https://transportist.org/2017/02/23/riv ... ernatives/

If they can't pencil out a business case for rail over BRT, rail isn't going to happen. It seems hard enough to get rail passed even when the numbers pencil out.

He neglected to mention that this will also serve the airport and the Mall of America (unless the MOA is part of "Downtown Bloomington").

Just because there is a cheaper option doesn't automatically mean its the better option.

Also he forgot to mention that in addition to the B Line on Lake/Marshall, a streetcar line is planned on the Midtown Greenway.

The rail line is expected to carry dramatically more riders than a bus line would; and it's not a zero-sum game. Especially now in the current political climate, it's worth considering that rail represents a somewhat permanent commitment to baseline services, while a bus line - no matter how well constructed - does not. I really like the A line service, and if we had bus lines like that along all our secondary spines that would be really good. But I think the intention is for this to be a primary spine, and there's a lot to be said for those being more permanent.

Also, I'll note that David Levinson's credibility is stretched by the fact that the blog post immediately preceding this one is him laying out a scenario that would result in Barack Obama becoming president again. That's verging on nihilistic fan fiction.

I'm new to this site but am very happy to see the Riverview Corridor being discussed here. It is being discussed intensely in the Hiawatha (and surrounding neighborhoods) and let's just say the discussion is less than enlightening. The "No to Everything!" crowd is pretty up in arms and I was reading about the Oppidian development at 46th and Snelling about a recent public meeting where the "No" group bullied and yelled so I suspect this meeting coming up in a couple days will be the same.

Invite your friends & neighbors
Neighborhood Meeting
Date: March 2
Time: 6-8 p.m., presentation at 6:15 p.m.

Location: Dowling Elementary School
3900 West River Parkway, Minneapolis (map)