Park and Portland Avenues

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
UptownSport
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 607
Joined: July 23rd, 2012, 12:07 am

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby UptownSport » December 7th, 2013, 12:11 pm

Wonder about putting LRT on these two streets. On the surface, the design of these as thoroughfares begs for it.
I doubt they rebuilt 94 bridges to hold trains, tho. :(

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7936
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby mattaudio » December 7th, 2013, 1:29 pm

Where would it go south of 46th St? If it could get to 60th, it could connect to the PGR ROW through "downtown" Richfield and on to Bloomington.

The problem though is that the stations should serve high-use nodes. The highest-use nodes in S. Mpls that really need connectivity to downtown are Hennepin/Lake, then probably Lyn/Lake, then Chicago/Lake/MTM, then probably Eat Street. Any nodes south of Lake that would work well are probably on Nicollet, with the possible exception of 50th/Bryant or 48th/Chicago. If both directions of the LRT were on Park, it would be de-facto service for the Chicago Ave corridor anyways being the same distance to Chicago as the greenway is to Lake.

This could potentially be a lighter impact lower cost application than a cut/cover under Nicollet, but there are some obstacles. First, it would likely serve less riders compared to the same alignment along Nicollet (although we'll soon have a streetcar over there). Second, I'm not sure there could be two lanes maintained in both directions between Park/Portland unless the county made Portland four lanes (and I dislike that idea) and I can't imagine them allowing less than four total lanes. Third, it would require some creative alignment to be useful downtown, unless it went all the way north on Park and then west on 5th St... but the existing 5th St corridor will be at capacity with Green/Blue. Finally, I just can't imagine how LRT would be palatable in some people's front yards (even though it works fine on Minnehaha between 50th/54th).

UptownSport
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 607
Joined: July 23rd, 2012, 12:07 am

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby UptownSport » December 7th, 2013, 3:50 pm

I was thinking strictly a 'mover' for S Minneapolis, and a train on each street (going with traffic, if that needs to be said).
It would seem easy to 'plop' down rail on these streets, and unobtrusive especially since one lane is essentially unused at the moment.
Don't think the Nicollet Trolley line's redundant; Streetcars traditionally have frequent stops; my understanding of the intent of Nicollet line is more local trips, especially near 'eat street'.

This would be a 'parallel' to Orange line in both senses of the word.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2702
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 8th, 2013, 1:05 am

Just another note, one way pairs actually reduce the usefulness of a line despite the gut feeling that they add to the walk radius of stops:

http://www.humantransit.org/2012/02/one ... ansit.html
http://www.humantransit.org/2013/10/fre ... pairs.html

UptownSport
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 607
Joined: July 23rd, 2012, 12:07 am

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby UptownSport » December 8th, 2013, 1:01 pm

One-ways reduce environmental impact of line, increasing efficiency (speed) with little risk of head-on accidents.
As discussed, cities have done one-ways world over, my guess would be engineering drawings weren't mis-interpreted by road builders en mass.

Not sure where you're getting these 'impressions' to debunk. People need to get efficiently into cities, get around, then get out, you can't reduce everything to a goat path without providing lots of goat parking.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2702
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 8th, 2013, 9:11 pm

I'm confused? I just wanted to point out that while one-way pair transit lines have some benefits (similar to well-designed one-way pair streets), also have drawbacks. If the line is to be useful for people that frequently travel in both directions (like, say, to work downtown every day), then the relevant walk shed is reduced. Since Park and Portland are already 1/8 mile apart from each other, that means for a person willing to walk 1/4 mile to a stop, they can be at most 1/8 mile to the east of Park or west of Portland.

I'm not saying I'm opposed to the proposal. Park and Portland certainly have plenty of ROW (just shy of 60' curb to curb) right now. Do you have examples of one-way paired LRT being able to operate faster than median-running LRT (similar to Green Line)? Data showing they're safer? I think the final challenge is that neither Park nor Portland south of Lake has any high-intensity nodes (as mattaudio points out), either commercial or residential (or both). Chicago Ave certainly has some, but the one-way pair nature puts a southbound stop at 1/4 mile from Chicago Ave. Connections via bus could make this workable, but if that's the case, the Orange Line seems just as workable? Politically, I think this would also be a challenge given the Orange Line brewin west and the Blue Line to the east as major N-S connectors. I don't know, just spitballin' ideas/thoughts.

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1353
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby Tcmetro » December 8th, 2013, 9:42 pm

Even north of Lake St, there isn't much going on on either Park or Portland. Best idea would be improving the Chicago and 4th Ave buses.

UptownSport
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 607
Joined: July 23rd, 2012, 12:07 am

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby UptownSport » December 10th, 2013, 12:01 pm

I'm just thinking, as I said, a way for people to get from S Mpls to downtown, and it would seem impact would be (relatively) minimal to put trains on those streets.
The nature of the streets suggests to me that there's a lot of people coming in and out of the city on them- Perhaps it's too much a leap to assume this could translate into riders.

I was vaguely aware Park / Portland don't go to Hennepin, Chicago, Lyndale, I think making them do so would be an immense undertaking.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6203
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby twincitizen » December 10th, 2013, 12:39 pm

This thread has gone full retard. The Orange Line + aBRT on Chicago (shifting to Portland, south of 60th) will provide a range of transit improvements. Park and Portland are mostly quiet residential streets that unfortunately serve as antiquated relievers to 35W.

UptownSport
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 607
Joined: July 23rd, 2012, 12:07 am

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby UptownSport » December 10th, 2013, 5:33 pm

35W is mostly residential in S Minneapolis too ... Yes? So is area where SWLRT passes thru Isles/Cedar.

"Antiquated" drivers are still continuing to use both the roads, and are going to do so long after UrbanMSP whining has turned to the next discovery that cars are actually using a road.

orangevening
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 138
Joined: June 18th, 2013, 12:18 pm

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby orangevening » December 10th, 2013, 5:42 pm

twincitizen wrote:This thread has gone full retard. The Orange Line + aBRT on Chicago (shifting to Portland, south of 60th) will provide a range of transit improvements. Park and Portland are mostly quiet residential streets that unfortunately serve as antiquated relievers to 35W.
Agree on the retard part. Orange line + midtown LTV + Chicago aBRT ave or streetcar (my preference) is going to transform south Mpls and will be plenty of transit w/o Park/Portland. Maybe it will take 10 years to have this, but at least its being looked at. It's kinda like being a Twins fan these days - it sucks now, but we have hope for the future (Buxton, Sano etc.). It will be a close call what will happen first - if these three lines are up and running or the Twins win another World Series?

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7936
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby mattaudio » December 10th, 2013, 8:51 pm

I don't think anyone, save maybe uptownsport, thought this was anything more than a wild thought experiment. It only got crazy when it kept getting defended.

User avatar
mister.shoes
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1287
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 10:22 am

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby mister.shoes » September 12th, 2014, 9:38 am

I noticed last night that Portland south of 46th Street is now signed for 30 MPH (with orange "hey! Pay attention!" flags) instead of 35. I only got as far as Diamond Lake Road this morning but I assume it extends the whole way to MN62.
The problem with being an introvert online is that no one knows you're just hanging out and listening.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6203
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Park and Portland Avenues

Postby twincitizen » September 12th, 2014, 10:21 am

I will confirm on the way home today and report back. I had been meaning to nag the county about that...it didn't make any sense for the narrowest, curviest stretch of the street to have a 35MPH limit, while the wider "faster" portion was 30.


Return to “Transportation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests