C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

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MNdible
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Re: C Line - Arterial Rapid Bus & Penn Ave Community Works Project

Postby MNdible » February 20th, 2018, 10:32 am

Given unlimited resources, maybe some of these extensions make sense. But if you refer to this map (and take it with a grain of salt), you'll see that not all areas merit beefed up transit.

We've talked about the perils of long routes before -- delays rippling through the system, more complicated routes that don't help the vast majority of riders. Hardly anybody (as a percentage of all riders) is actually going to through route from one end to the other, and for those that are, a transfer downtown between two very high frequency routes really isn't that big of a deal.

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Re: C Line - Arterial Rapid Bus & Penn Ave Community Works Project

Postby Silophant » February 20th, 2018, 10:36 am

As for the B Line, the original presentation announcing it showed it as extending down Marshall all the way to Snelling.

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Re: C Line - Arterial Rapid Bus & Penn Ave Community Works Project

Postby alexschief » February 20th, 2018, 11:02 am

MNdible wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 10:32 am
Given unlimited resources, maybe some of these extensions make sense. But if you refer to this map (and take it with a grain of salt), you'll see that not all areas merit beefed up transit.

We've talked about the perils of long routes before -- delays rippling through the system, more complicated routes that don't help the vast majority of riders. Hardly anybody (as a percentage of all riders) is actually going to through route from one end to the other, and for those that are, a transfer downtown between two very high frequency routes really isn't that big of a deal.
Those resources would total a fraction of the resources being expended on the end of the SWLRT. When it comes to aBRT, resources really should be close to unlimited.

These through-running routes aren't much more complicated. They take one arterial into downtown and take another out of it. The concerns about delays are real, but Metro Transit really doesn't have an on-time problem and until it does, I wouldn't be too concerned, especially when aBRT is so much more efficient than a regular bus. On the other hand, there are real labor cost savings and ridership benefits for through-running routes. Through running routes are a better product. Minimizing turnarounds and transfers and providing quick, one-seat travel through the most congested areas of the cities is something really valuable that only the D-Line will be doing.

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Tcmetro
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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Tcmetro » February 20th, 2018, 12:35 pm

A lot of routes were historically through routes, and were separated partially because of issues of timeliness. Another big issue of through routing is demand mismatch between the different portions the route. There is precedence for separation as well:

The 18 used to serve NE, on what is now the 11 and 17W.

The 10 used to serve Grand Ave on the south side.

The 6 used to continue to Rosedale, but was cut back to Dinkytown when the 3 started.

MT has separated the 4 during PM rush, and is interested in full time separation.

I think the 5/future D would be a good candidate for separation, but the high level of service is a huge cost barrier.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby mattaudio » February 20th, 2018, 12:41 pm

I'm not sure why we focus on separating one long slow route into two shorter slow routes, when instead we could spend some money on dedicated lanes and other transit advantage so we can do one long fast route with less. I wonder how much bus time, fuel, and driver salary are wasted on buses stuck in traffic.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 14th, 2018, 11:40 am

C Line breaks ground on March 20th at 10:30am at the corner of Penn and Lowry!

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 14th, 2018, 11:41 am

Reach out to service development for realignment of the Route 19 when the C Line opens.
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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Tcmetro » March 14th, 2018, 12:54 pm

Interesting.

Would be quite logical to keep the branch that ends at 42nd and York and extend to Robbinsdale, although I believe that service was complained about enough to the the point that MT eliminated it.

Otherwise, Option A looks good, IMO. Shame that it is only being considered at peak, but I imagine that it could be a tough sell to get the residents on Thomas between Lowry and Dowling to support any bus service.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 14th, 2018, 1:22 pm

Tcmetro wrote:
March 14th, 2018, 12:54 pm
Otherwise, Option A looks good, IMO. Shame that it is only being considered at peak, but I imagine that it could be a tough sell to get the residents on Thomas between Lowry and Dowling to support any bus service.
Do you think that is due to the width of the road?

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Tcmetro » March 14th, 2018, 2:26 pm

Yes, that and it's a residential street with no history of bus service.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby twincitizen » March 15th, 2018, 9:08 am

How about Option D - add 2 or 3 more stations to the C Line and just get of the 19 entirely?

Maybe that's too abrupt for Day One of service, but it seems like a reasonable long-term goal. I'd think after a few years of service, it would be pretty easy to identify which (if any) of the local stops are still picking up decent ridership, and evaluate if those should be aBRT stops.

That said, neither option A or B above make much sense to me. Like if Option A makes sense (meaning there'd no local service on Penn between Lowry & 42nd), then maybe consider just ending the 19 local at Lowry (or have it turn on Lowry to Robbinsdale). I totally understand that running service on Thomas is desirable from a coverage perspective (having no service whatsoever west of Penn seems bad), but I can't understand why it would divert back to Penn instead of cutting west over to Robbinsdale at 42nd or 45th. Is there a specific need for the 19 local north of 42nd (which all three options would retain)?

tl;dr Options A & B make more sense if they turn west to serve Robbinsdale. Option C is the best choice if the long-term goal is to get rid of the 19 entirely and re-deploy those service hours elsewhere (crosstown routes, etc.)

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby intercomnut » March 15th, 2018, 9:23 am

twincitizen wrote:
March 15th, 2018, 9:08 am
How about Option D - add 2 or 3 more stations to the C Line and just get of the 19 entirely?

Maybe that's too abrupt for Day One of service, but it seems like a reasonable long-term goal. I'd think after a few years of service, it would be pretty easy to identify which (if any) of the local stops are still picking up decent ridership, and evaluate if those should be aBRT stops.

That said, neither option A or B above make much sense to me. Like if Option A makes sense (meaning there'd no local service on Penn between Lowry & 42nd), then maybe consider just ending the 19 local at Lowry (or have it turn on Lowry to Robbinsdale). I totally understand that running service on Thomas is desirable from a coverage perspective (having no service whatsoever west of Penn seems bad), but I can't understand why it would divert back to Penn instead of cutting west over to Robbinsdale at 42nd or 45th. Is there a specific need for the 19 local north of 42nd (which all three options would retain)?

tl;dr Options A & B make more sense if they turn west to serve Robbinsdale. Option C is the best choice if the long-term goal is to get rid of the 19 entirely and re-deploy those service hours elsewhere (crosstown routes, etc.)
Those branches only run 3-4 trips in the peak direction during rush hours. Otherwise, local service remains on Penn.

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Tcmetro
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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Tcmetro » March 15th, 2018, 10:14 am

The H branch is currently an all day service (hourly), so those riders would see a service cut. I'd imagine that off peak ridership is pretty low, though.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 20th, 2018, 11:03 am

Image

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Got some cool shots of the groundbreaking of the C Line and a fun momentum to put in my transit collection.


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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby FISHMANPET » March 20th, 2018, 11:11 am

I love how we cart in a pile of sand to a parking lot for these groundbreaking ceremonies.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 20th, 2018, 11:14 am

FISHMANPET wrote:
March 20th, 2018, 11:11 am
I love how we cart in a pile of sand to a parking lot for these groundbreaking ceremonies.
It does seem kind of silly, but it is a way for community members to see that the project is advancing forward and be serving them soon!

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby FISHMANPET » March 20th, 2018, 11:15 am

I suspect these events are far more for the people throwing the sand than the people having sand thrown at them.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby MNdible » March 20th, 2018, 11:59 am

Any excuse to trot this out:

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby FISHMANPET » March 20th, 2018, 12:03 pm

#neverforget

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 20th, 2018, 12:08 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:
March 20th, 2018, 11:15 am
I suspect these events are far more for the people throwing the sand than the people having sand thrown at them.
Whatever not going to argue, but I was there. It was more than just government officials.


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