C Line - Arterial Rapid Bus & Penn Ave Community Works Project

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
intercomnut
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Re: "C Line" (Penn Ave aBRT)

Postby intercomnut » November 7th, 2015, 12:31 pm

So, fun fact: There will be 39 stops for the C-Line. Out of those, 9 (23%) will only be built to temporary standards (ie. no new shelters) when the C-Line begins operation. Also, the two stops at Brooklyn Blvd will not be in operation at all when the C-Line begins, leaving a 1.5 mile gap between stops.

A more fun fact: 2 stops (SB Penn at Golden Valley and W Broadway) will be incorporated into new developments at those sites. Though I've never really been a fan of the stop at 8th & Nicollet Mall that is incorporated into the U.S. Bank building, so we'll see how that shakes out.

intercomnut
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby intercomnut » January 9th, 2016, 8:48 pm

Presentation to the MPRB regarding a possible station at Osseo Rd and Victory Memorial Pkwy. There are 4 alternatives, with 2 aiming to keep stops away from houses, one aiming to keep the stops near the Parkway, and one avoiding putting a station there altogether.

Tcmetro
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby Tcmetro » January 22nd, 2016, 10:53 am

Draft C Line Station Plan to go before the Transportation Committee meeting on Monday. Some takeaways:

- Brooklyn Blvd. stop decision to be made in the future. C Line will open late 2017, but the construction won't be finished until sometime in 2018.
- Victory Pkwy. stop to not be included. BRT station said to be too close to residences, and not to fit in with the character of the Pkwy. C Line buses will not stop from Penn/43rd to Xerxes/56th until the Brooklyn Blvd. stop opens.
- 43rd Ave chosen over 44th Ave, primarily for Henry High School students.
- All stops on Penn will have bumpouts with the exception of the W Broadway and Lowry stops.
- Study this year for permanent BRT infrastructure on Olson Hwy or Glenwood Ave.

http://www.metrocouncil.org/Council-Mee ... ne-St.aspx

helsinki
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby helsinki » January 22nd, 2016, 4:17 pm

Difficult to understand how they managed to get the line within spitting distance of the Interchange/Northstar station, but made no provision for their connection.

In fact, aside from the theoretical future Bottineau overlap, there isn't any LRT connection here at all, right? The least they could do is loop north on Chicago for two blocks to connect with the DTE station - it requires no design creativity (like the Interchange might) and it's probably not prohibitively expensive. Seems odd to just dead-end at Park anyway.

EOst
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby EOst » January 22nd, 2016, 5:36 pm

Royalston from SWLRT is the planned connection.

helsinki
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby helsinki » January 22nd, 2016, 6:03 pm

EOst wrote:Royalston from SWLRT is the planned connection.
Not really a 'connection' though, is it? The map shows no station between Olson/7th and "Ramp A"/7th St. Transit Ctr. [alternatively 7th & Hennepin]. The document mentions transfer to Royalston from Olson/7th - but the planned Royalston LRT platform is several blocks south of Olson/7th. This is about as far away as the Interchange itself.

Here's the plan of the Royalston station: https://streets.mn/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ansfer.jpg

VAStationDude
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby VAStationDude » January 22nd, 2016, 6:14 pm

Page 75 of the pdf shows the planned connection. The southbound C Line to Green Line transfer will be pretty decent. Maybe a 400 foot walk with one crossing on Royalston. Green Line to a C Line bus heading north would require crossing Olson at 7th. Not ideal.

alleycat
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby alleycat » January 22nd, 2016, 6:17 pm

It's labeled as Olson and 7th Street.

The removal of the Victory Memorial and Osseo station is the worst part of the plan. That is not a major trip generator, but it is a key destination along the route. It's also an important connection back to the Penn/Osseo/44th intersection (No stop there due to a difficult intersection). I heard rumblings about the Victory Memorial station this summer, but I thought it was just naysayers making veiled racial comments about transit riders. I never thought that the park board or Victory Neighborhood would actually nix the station.
Last edited by alleycat on January 22nd, 2016, 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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acs
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby acs » January 22nd, 2016, 6:23 pm

You underestimate the animosity between the park board and Metro Transit right now. Don't expect them to cooperate on any transit project.

helsinki
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby helsinki » January 22nd, 2016, 6:59 pm

VAStationDude wrote:Page 75 of the pdf shows the planned connection. The southbound C Line to Green Line transfer will be pretty decent. Maybe a 400 foot walk with one crossing on Royalston. Green Line to a C Line bus heading north would require crossing Olson at 7th. Not ideal.
Right. So, this is what passes for a connection? That's a pretty generous definition. Sure, for an able bodied young person with ample time to transfer (and barring obstructive snowbanks), it's fine. But . . . for a lot of people and in many instances it will be frustrating.

VAStationDude
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby VAStationDude » January 22nd, 2016, 7:38 pm

I don't disagree. Let's hope the level of investment in the Green Line and C Line will ensure a commitment to clear snow well.

Given the bend required to get around the herc and the grade change from the bridge over 7th, a seamless connection doesn't look possible. Maybe a north bound stop at 5th avenue and 7th street with a stop light would be feasible.

Silophant
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby Silophant » January 22nd, 2016, 7:40 pm

It is awful that the Victory Memorial station was removed, but the bright side is that it should be pretty easy to infill aBRT stations. When the Park Board decides they're ready to play ball, the station can be added without too much trouble, at least compared to an infill LRT station. Maybe during the D Line construction?

As far as the Olson and 7th station, is there any plan yet for what happens if the Olson Memorial portion of the line ends up moving to Glenwood instead? Would the buses loop up on Lyndale or something to hit Olson/7th or would they just take Glenwood right to 7th? If the latter, a Glenwood and Royalston station would be a little closer to the LRT station than Olson and 7th, though not by much.

mattaudio
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby mattaudio » April 13th, 2016, 1:20 pm

Delayed a year.
http://www.startribune.com/north-minnea ... 375587041/

But of course we have $2 million to waste on a few dozen riders along the 169 corridor.

DanPatchToget
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby DanPatchToget » April 13th, 2016, 8:40 pm

mattaudio wrote:Delayed a year.
http://www.startribune.com/north-minnea ... 375587041/

But of course we have $2 million to waste on a few dozen riders along the 169 corridor.
To be fair at least they cut their losses instead of trying to make it last for two years as was originally planned. But yeah, money is better spent improving our urban bus routes before we try experimenting with suburb-to-suburb express service (or a park & ride shuttle).

twincitizen
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby twincitizen » April 14th, 2016, 7:00 am

It sounds like timing the project with Hennepin County's construction schedule played at least as large a part as the funding. Even if the funding was nearly 100% lined up, they still wouldn't open the line with Penn Avenue under construction.

Still, it's frustrating as hell. The A Line is being delivered 6 months late, and the B Line not at all. Now the C Line, originally scheduled to open late 2017 won't open until 2019 (1.5-2 years late at best). If the C Line were to open June 2019, we're on pace for one line every three years! :x

The only thing that would reinvigorate my original excitement about this aBRT program is if it were announced next year that the D Line (Route 5) would open in 2020 and Lake Street in 2021, somewhat getting back on track. If we get a transportation bill this year, that's not out of the realm of possibility. The planning processes used on the A Line and C Line can be replicated much more quickly, now that things like station design are set. Also, with A Line opening and C Line (and Orange Line) planning largely completed this year, the Small Starts/aBRT Project Office will need something to work on. Let's all hope that this team at Metro Transit continues to be funded so they can quietly continue work on the D Line and Lake Street line. I'd hate to see their group have to lay people off, due to lack of planning funding for the next aBRT projects.

EDIT:
F&C article - http://finance-commerce.com/2016/04/fun ... t-project/
Metro Transit presentation - http://www.metrocouncil.org/Council-Mee ... T-PPT.aspx

Even without a comprehensive transpo funding bill this year, I'm optimistic that between Hennepin County and Metro Transit, the funding situation will get worked out. With Hennepin County already reconstructing the road, there's opportunity for even greater coordination than we saw with the A-line's various road projects. Metro Transit has another year to find funding for the stations and vehicles.

mattaudio
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby mattaudio » April 14th, 2016, 12:03 pm

I'd like to see Mpls throw $5-10 million a year towards aBRT within the city. Maybe Mpls could fund the station/route upgrades, leaving the fleet additions to other agencies.

acs
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby acs » April 14th, 2016, 12:10 pm

Why can't Minneapolis do this, invest in transit on their own? It was my understanding that in the past they could but now the Met Council controls everything.

Silophant
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby Silophant » April 14th, 2016, 12:30 pm

No idea how it works, but they're (probably?) doing it for the streetcar, so I guess they can, somehow.

Maybe the issue is that none of the near-term aBRTs are entirely within Minneapolis?

RailBaronYarr
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby RailBaronYarr » April 14th, 2016, 12:32 pm

I mentioned this in another thread (perhaps multiple times). I guess, if the city can legally find a way to do TIF for a $200m streetcar on Nicollet Ave that would be handed over to MT to operate + change the 18 bus schedule/service areas, I don't know why the city couldn't also be paying for bus bulbs and stations and buses for aBRT. Sure, some of the routes are on county/state roads, and there is efficiency in timing projects along with potential future construction work (ex. Penn), but Hennepin, Nicollet, Chicago, and Emerson/Fremont - all streets with aBRT routes identified - are city-owned (even if they're MSAS routes). Minneapolis could also be adding bus shelters or wayfinding or other things that make the transit experience generally better, right?

David Greene
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Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue aBRT & Community Works Project

Postby David Greene » April 14th, 2016, 2:48 pm

One reason is you don't want to set a precedent of the city backfilling for lack of funding from the state, CTIB or whomever. It's easier for others to cut your funding when you've demonstrated a willingness to cannibalize other programs to fill the gap.


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