C Line - Arterial Rapid Bus & Penn Ave Community Works Project

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3000
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: 9Marq

C Line - Arterial Rapid Bus & Penn Ave Community Works Project

Postby Silophant » September 9th, 2014, 8:59 am

Looks like Metro Transit's planning to move this one up to 2016, since the B Line's in limbo. I'm happy about that, at least. It's important to keep these lines happening once per year, to maintain momentum. Hopefully the B Line can slot back into the rotation when St. Paul decides to stop shooting itself in the foot with regards to transit.

Also, I'm still hopeful that they'll come up with a branch or a local shuttle or something that would provide a connection to the Green Line Penn Ave Station, rather than forcing everyone to go as far as Royalston.

Image

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5170
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby MNdible » September 9th, 2014, 9:12 am

Yep, this is a nice pick-up for Minneapolis.

I'm sure it's announcement has nothing whatsoever to do with the SWLRT negotiations, because you're not allowed to link funding for one project to approval of another. Wink, wink.

Regarding whether this line should link up with SWLRT at Penn or at Royalston, my feeling is that many more riders will be heading to downtown than will be transferring to SWLRT. So it makes more sense to slightly inconvenience the few than the many.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7299
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby mattaudio » September 9th, 2014, 9:14 am

This is great news.

Regarding the route, I don't understand why they don't just go down to Penn/394 to connect with the Green Line, and then hop the freeway right into downtown. This would provide faster running times to people taking the Green Line to the SW Suburbs (they'd transfer two stops closer to their destination) and it would likely provide faster times between Penn/Olson and the downtown job core. Even moreso once the Blue Line is heading down Olson past Van White and Penn.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5170
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby MNdible » September 9th, 2014, 9:18 am

So, you've never been stuck in 394 backed up heading into downtown, I assume...

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7299
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby mattaudio » September 9th, 2014, 9:21 am

Every day.... but you can get around if it you know the right lanes to be in, or if you are a bus that could get access to the shoulder.

It could even use Dunwoody/Hennepin between 394 and 7th/8th Streets, and it wouldn't even have to get out of the aux lanes between the Penn and Dunwoody ramps.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 5798
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby twincitizen » September 9th, 2014, 9:37 am

Yep, there's no HOT lane entrance at Penn (plus it would be going the wrong way for half the trips).

Once the C-Line is up and running, the local 19 could be adapted to serve the Penn SWLRT Station. Heck, it could even swing west and pick up one of the 57 branches of Route 9, which would connect other areas (like West End) to SWLRT. No matter how fantastical your visions of northsiders commuting to suburban jobs, the fact is (and ridership projections will confirm) that significantly more people along the Penn Avenue corridor are heading downtown (or even to points along Olson Hwy). The Penn Ave SWLRT station is going to be a minor destination in the grand transit scheme. Obsessing about connecting frequent buses to the SWLRT Station seems like focusing too much on what the map will look like, rather than how transit it actually used.

That said, I agree with the suggestion about moving the aBRT to Glenwood once Bottineau is running (so like in 2024, realistically). It will make little sense to have both LRT and limited stop buses serving Olson Hwy.

Anyways, there's no real point in arguing the C-Line route today. It's set. I'd focus more on what to do with the local 19, and then maybe what to do with the C-Line when the Blue Line is running down the middle of Olson Hwy.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4592
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby David Greene » September 9th, 2014, 10:24 am

MNdible wrote:Regarding whether this line should link up with SWLRT at Penn or at Royalston, my feeling is that many more riders will be heading to downtown than will be transferring to SWLRT. So it makes more sense to slightly inconvenience the few than the many.
But there's an on-ramp to I-394 heading into downtown literally right at the station.

Why the hell would we duplicate Blue line service on Olson? At least send this line down Glenwood if it is so very terrible to connect it to the station.

EDIT: Posted before I read the rest of the thread. :)

Is congestion into down really that bad? I've never experienced it but then again it's not my normal commute. IME the congestion from 394 to 94 east is way worse.

I don't think it's realistic to reroute this once Bottineau is running. All of the stations will have been built.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7299
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby mattaudio » September 9th, 2014, 10:39 am

David Greene wrote:Is congestion into down really that bad? I've never experienced it but then again it's not my normal commute. IME the congestion from 394 to 94 east is way worse.
No, the bad lane is the right-hand lane of the mainline, which is the single lane to 94 east. This creates spillover congestion into the middle mainline lane, but it would be relatively easy for the bus to cut across to one of the left two lanes to get into downtown (I've never seen congestion into downtown, past the split to 94) or it could easily take the aux lane to exit at Dunwoody.

go4guy
Foshay Tower
Posts: 807
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 8:54 am

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby go4guy » September 9th, 2014, 10:52 am

The problem is, it is very dangerous to cross over from the entrance off Penn, to get to the left lane. Those lanes of traffic are always moving at different speeds. And a bus cannot speed up quick enough. This would just cause a train reaction of break lights slowing down this already horrible stretch.

Online
HiawathaGuy
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1316
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 12:03 pm

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby HiawathaGuy » September 9th, 2014, 11:02 am

go4guy wrote:The problem is, it is very dangerous to cross over from the entrance off Penn, to get to the left lane. Those lanes of traffic are always moving at different speeds. And a bus cannot speed up quick enough. This would just cause a train reaction of break lights slowing down this already horrible stretch.
This happens regularly on the 535, traveling north on 35W from the center at 46th Street to the shoulder at Lake Street, and then back to the center again as the bus heads into downtown. It's not ideal, but certainly not a deal breaker. Also, as has been mentioned several times now, the bus could simply stay in the auxiliary lane from Penn Ave's onramp to Dunwoody Blvd and travel into downtown that way.

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2728
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby mulad » September 9th, 2014, 12:30 pm

Seems more practical for the bus to be Penn -> Glenwood -> Van White/Dunwoody, going past the Van White station rather than Penn.

I suppose this points out an issue wit the whole Van White Boulevard project -- it's pretty weird for Van White / Dunwoody / Hennepin to nearly loop back around on themselves as they do -- it probably would have made more sense for the new crossing of the tracks to have aimed northwest/southeast along the northern edge of the Bryn Mawr Meadows park and connected into Morgan Ave or maybe Laurel Ave. It still would have been possible to have a straight north-south connection thorough there as well, using two short bridges to cross tracks as they diverge more, rather than one long bridge to cross them so close to the split point. Oh well, maybe the topography just wouldn't work for that or something.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4592
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby David Greene » September 9th, 2014, 1:22 pm

mulad wrote:I suppose this points out an issue wit the whole Van White Boulevard project -- it's pretty weird for Van White / Dunwoody / Hennepin to nearly loop back around on themselves as they do -- it probably would have made more sense for the new crossing of the tracks to have aimed northwest/southeast along the northern edge of the Bryn Mawr Meadows park and connected into Morgan Ave or maybe Laurel Ave. It still would have been possible to have a straight north-south connection thorough there as well, using two short bridges to cross tracks as they diverge more, rather than one long bridge to cross them so close to the split point. Oh well, maybe the topography just wouldn't work for that or something.
Agreed, but funds were limited. As it is the Van White bridge is only half of what was promised. The city has yet to deliver another span.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7299
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby mattaudio » September 9th, 2014, 1:25 pm

To be fair, does the second span really matter until traffic demand warrants it? Wasn't the purpose to improve connectivity?

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4592
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby David Greene » September 9th, 2014, 1:25 pm

mulad wrote:Seems more practical for the bus to be Penn -> Glenwood -> Van White/Dunwoody, going past the Van White station rather than Penn.
I could really dig this if the 19 were also routed to Penn station.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4592
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby David Greene » September 9th, 2014, 1:26 pm

mattaudio wrote:To be fair, does the second span really matter until traffic demand warrants it? Wasn't the purpose to improve connectivity?
That's a fair point. Let's hope we get there sooner rather than later!

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2728
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby mulad » September 9th, 2014, 1:32 pm

The dual span idea for Van White Boulevard seems overkill to me, particularly looking at the nearby Cedar Lake Road, Penn Ave, and Glenwood bridges.

If they'd gone northwest/southeast, they could have gotten rid of the existing bike/ped bridge with spirals on each end, which would save money down the line. Looking more closely at the aerials, I see that a power line seems to be in the way, so maybe that was considered prohibitive.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7299
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby mattaudio » September 9th, 2014, 1:36 pm

If anything, seems like it would make sense to use the savings from not building a second Van White span, to instead connect Laurel Ave from Bryn Mawr to the Basset Creek redevelopment area (partially reconnecting the alignment that connected straight into downtown until the freeways were built.

Uptown46
Metrodome
Posts: 53
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 12:19 pm

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby Uptown46 » September 9th, 2014, 5:35 pm

mulad- they're actually proposing to remove that bike/ped bridge near Van White as part of the $30M in pedestrian and bike upgrades from the SWLRT deal for Minneapolis municipal consent and realign a connection to Van White bridge.

Online
grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4020
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby grant1simons2 » September 9th, 2014, 5:47 pm

Source for that info? That doesn't sound like anything Minneapolis or the MET would do

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1152
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: "C Line" Penn Avenue Arterial Bus

Postby Tcmetro » September 9th, 2014, 5:54 pm

I think that it wouldn't be a smart move by Metro Transit to operate the C Line to the SWLRT station then along 394 into downtown. Even after the opening of the SWLRT, the primary movement for Penn Ave transit customers is Downtown Minneapolis. Additionally, I think that rerouting the C Line to Glenwood would reduce too much service to the public housing development at Olson/Van White.

IMO, the best option is to operate the C Line as planned, and use the 19 local as the primary connector to the SWLRT. This will prevent duplication of local, arterial BRT, and light rail service along Olson, and will prevent the local buses from becoming empty followers of the arterial BRT buses. I think the ideal option would be to have the 19H (42nd/York) branch re-extended to Robbinsdale TC, and extended down to the SWLRT station. This allows the local buses to bring people to connecting services, whereas the C Line can function as a fast, trunk line service from Brooklyn Center to Downtown Minneapolis.

Matters will become complicated once the Bottineau LRT extension opens. It would be operationally wise to end service at Olson Hwy, but it seems too close to Downtown Minneapolis, and riders may quit transit if they have to make too many transfers.


Return to “Transportation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bakken2016, VacantLuxuries and 2 guests