Fantasy maps

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froggie
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Fantasy maps

Postby froggie » November 10th, 2014, 7:40 am

Since the original *f antasy map thread got taken over for Visualizer's future transit map, thought I'd introduce a new fantasy map thread, since I didn't spot another thread where the following would be appropriate:

Image

This is a major revision of my original downtown St. Paul fantasy transit map, and reflects what LRT might look like in and around downtown St. Paul if the Riverview, Robert St, Gateway, and Rush corridors were all built as LRT. The changes include what was actually built for the Green Line (vice what one of the proposals was at the time before construction), a shift in a "central station" location from on top of 4th and Cedar to the existing Central Station that was built with the Green Line, and some more thought into the engineering feasibility of the branch lines...namely Riverview (going along 5th St vice trying to tunnel under Xcel/Rivercentre) and Rush (a street routing vs. going through Swede Hollow).

*For some reason, the forum is using a "p" instead of an "f" for the actual word.

bptenor
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby bptenor » November 10th, 2014, 8:41 am

That maps shows just about exactly what I'd envision for these lines as well, although it might be more feasible to have Gateway and Rush terminate behind the SPUD head house rather than in front. I hope Rush can take this street routing, but given Gateway through out all proposals that did so, I'm not going to hold my breath. As far as Riverview, the biggest problem will probably be noise mitigation for the Ordway and potential stabilization issues with the Landmark Center.

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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby mattaudio » November 10th, 2014, 9:12 am

I likes me some fantasy

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Nick
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby Nick » November 10th, 2014, 8:37 pm

We were getting some weird porn stuff in our search engine redirects, it felt wrong to tease like that.

BigIdeasGuy
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby BigIdeasGuy » November 10th, 2014, 9:07 pm

I can't find the article right now but I remember reading not too long ago that the Ordway designed their new concert hall to be acoustically sealed so there would be no outside noise coming in. I'm not sure about the main theater but with the double set of doors going into the hall I would guess it's pretty well acoustically sealed as well.

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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby grant1simons2 » March 21st, 2015, 8:33 pm

I need to make a real map of my idea, (well, not neccisarily only mine), for a commuter rail between Rochester and Winona. It would especially be helpful if Ziprail and hsr to Milwaukee come through.

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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby mulad » March 21st, 2015, 9:11 pm

I have been running some numbers on how many commuters there are along the corridor using the Census' OnTheMap tool. There are some caveats to my technique, but it looks like the largest pool of commuters you can get per unit distance is with a segment from Dodge Center to Rochester, which of course is west of Rochester rather than east. The next most effective option would be Dodge Center to Winona, followed in tight succession by Owatonna to Winona, then Mankato to Winona.

In other words, if you want to connect Winona to Rochester by rail, it should at least extend beyond to Dodge Center, and it's probably good to just go all the way to Mankato.

froggie
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby froggie » March 22nd, 2015, 7:07 am

grant1simons2 wrote:I need to make a real map of my idea, (well, not neccisarily only mine), for a commuter rail between Rochester and Winona. It would especially be helpful if Ziprail and hsr to Milwaukee come through.
I saw Kasson to Eyota as more realistic for commuter rail.
mulad wrote:In other words, if you want to connect Winona to Rochester by rail, it should at least extend beyond to Dodge Center, and it's probably good to just go all the way to Mankato.
Indeed...

grant1simons2
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby grant1simons2 » March 22nd, 2015, 12:42 pm

I know when my sister went to Winona they would head to Roch for the weekend. Just to shop and see people they know going to college at the UofM campus. That's one reason. Another would be what I mentioned previously for connecting people who want to use HSR to Milwaukee that are living in Roch. It's all part of trying to create a more car free lifestyle in midsized towns. Expanding it to Mankato would be even better. Really almost all colleges could be possibly connected by rail someday, with the exception of some very small ones.

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Tiller
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby Tiller » March 22nd, 2015, 1:48 pm

This was initially 2 separate maps, for the Riverview and Rush corridors, but since I couldn't help but continue adding to this, It's become more of a pantasy map, so I'll drop it here.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... HQwbeccJkw

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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby mulad » March 22nd, 2015, 8:15 pm

I hadn't included La Crosse in my analysis of the east-west corridor through southern MN, though I should add that into my analysis. It could tip the needle more in favor of doing the eastern end of the line first. The section between Winona and La Crosse is potentially more complicated and expensive since it's a heavily-used corridor, but it is already built and maintained for passenger rail speeds and has decent signaling in place.

By contrast, most of the DM&E corridor should be able to support passenger trains at 60 mph (well, 59 mph) as it stands today, but it needs improved signaling, probably a few added/restored sidings, and probably some alignment work to bring the tracks up to the standard needed for 80 mph (79 mph) operation. I'm not sure if the existing alignment between Winona and Lewiston will ever be very fast, but almost everything west of there is pretty straight. The last little bit into Mankato is also pretty circuitous.

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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby Silophant » March 22nd, 2015, 8:43 pm

Wow, that is painful getting into Mankato, though it follows 14 pretty well east of Eagle Lake. Or 14 follows the tracks, I suppose.

Related question: Did the study that went into MnDOTs Rail Plan get into stations at all? It seems like the old depots are still there in most of these towns, but have been repurposed over the decades. I know Mankato's is some sort of financial company, and Faribault's is a restaurant.

Vagueperson
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby Vagueperson » March 24th, 2015, 9:06 pm

Tiller wrote:This was initially 2 separate maps, for the Riverview and Rush corridors, but since I couldn't help but continue adding to this, It's become more of a pantasy map, so I'll drop it here.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... HQwbeccJkw
I like this Rush line better than the first fantasy map above b/c it hits Payne Ave, though lower Payne lacks the commercial density of the northern section. One issue with making a stop at Arcade and Phalen, though, this would require very tall elevators.

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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby froggie » March 25th, 2015, 2:39 pm

I like this Rush line better than the first fantasy map above b/c it hits Payne Ave, though lower Payne lacks the commercial density of the northern section. One issue with making a stop at Arcade and Phalen, though, this would require very tall elevators.
There are topographical issues with trying to get a transit line up to Payne Ave from the bottom end of Swede Hollow. You could possibly run it from 7th St, but the corners at 4th and Wall or Broadway are tight (probably too tight). You could backtrack from 7th and Mounds, but at that point you might as well continue it along 7th like I do.

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Tiller
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby Tiller » March 26th, 2015, 8:33 am

Vagueperson wrote:
Tiller wrote:This was initially 2 separate maps, for the Riverview and Rush corridors, but since I couldn't help but continue adding to this, It's become more of a pantasy map, so I'll drop it here.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... HQwbeccJkw
I like this Rush line better than the first fantasy map above b/c it hits Payne Ave, though lower Payne lacks the commercial density of the northern section. One issue with making a stop at Arcade and Phalen, though, this would require very tall elevators.
It could travel further up payne, but payne narrows after minnehaha, meaning row-width problems. streetcar/abrt would probably be more suitable, with transfers at the phalen/payne station to lrt.
froggie wrote:
I like this Rush line better than the first fantasy map above b/c it hits Payne Ave, though lower Payne lacks the commercial density of the northern section. One issue with making a stop at Arcade and Phalen, though, this would require very tall elevators.
There are topographical issues with trying to get a transit line up to Payne Ave from the bottom end of Swede Hollow. You could possibly run it from 7th St, but the corners at 4th and Wall or Broadway are tight (probably too tight). You could backtrack from 7th and Mounds, but at that point you might as well continue it along 7th like I do.
The way I figured it could be done was by branching off of a (probably) new new kelloggs bridge, and going over 94, bringing it back down to grade right before the intersection of Payne and E 7th. It then becomes a question of tolerances with regards to elevation change and turn radii. Partially eyballing it, and partially using the my maps measurement tool, it works. That is, assuming there are no onerous regulations in the way.

The only downside is some added cost, which could have been negated, as they're replacing (if i recall correctly) the kellogg bridge. It may still be possible if MNDOT puts some bandaids on it, but that would imply inter-agency co-operation.

mjleyrer
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Re: *F antasy maps

Postby mjleyrer » March 27th, 2015, 10:25 am

Silophant wrote:Did the study that went into MnDOTs Rail Plan get into stations at all? It seems like the old depots are still there in most of these towns, but have been repurposed over the decades. I know Mankato's is some sort of financial company, and Faribault's is a restaurant.
Hey, yeah it's a financial company right now, but I'm pretty sure the real estate group that owns it is ready and willing to turn it back into a depot if that time ever came.

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Tiller
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby Tiller » April 9th, 2015, 12:35 am

A cleaned-up version, with corridors separated by line color.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... fRV2vKjkzQ

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby min-chi-cbus » April 9th, 2015, 8:15 am

Those are some great ideas! I especially like parts of the Brown, Red and Yellow corridors:

Brown: the whole line...I love it because it connects the separate lines together and goes through some of the most urban and redevelopable areas within Minneapolis and St. Paul outside of their downtowns.

Red: the part between DT St. Paul and the airport needs to be a reality someday, but the rest of it would be icing on the cake for me, as much as I'd like White Bear Lake to be connected to the system, and also to have a second connector line through Bloomington that ties that key market together.

Yellow: the part between Bloomington/Edina to Central Avenue in Minneapolis and maybe Fridley should be a must-have as well someday. If Prior Lake and Ramsey aren't connected to the metro's future rail network though, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

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MN Fats
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby MN Fats » April 9th, 2015, 8:24 am

I was going to list every reason why that brown line wouldn't work then I remembered what thread this is, lol ...


Great work on it though! Some fun ideas.

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Tiller
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Re: Fantasy maps

Postby Tiller » April 9th, 2015, 12:20 pm

MN Fats wrote:I was going to list every reason why that brown line wouldn't work then I remembered what thread this is, lol ...


Great work on it though! Some fun ideas.
Thanks! While that is true, not being easily butt-rustled, I welcome criticism/suggestions. That is how ideas are best improved, so feel free to lay it on me.


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