Minnesota Transportation Funding (General)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
amiller92
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby amiller92 » August 21st, 2015, 11:09 am

The core cities do subsidize the infrastructure of the suburbs, but by the same token the suburbs subsidize the social services of the city. Which one is larger? I don't know, but if lady Minneapolis were really the saintly giver being taken advantage of by parasitic suburbs then her city budget wouldn't be reliant on $79m a year in LGA.
If lady Minneapolis was allowed to levy her own sales and income taxes, she wouldn't need be so reliant on the legislature to do so for her and thus be subject to the whims of a particular party when it wants to grandstand about all of the "aid" she "needs."

EOst
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby EOst » August 21st, 2015, 11:16 am

If lady Minneapolis was allowed to levy her own sales and income taxes, she wouldn't need be so reliant on the legislature to do so for her and thus be subject to the whims of a particular party when it wants to grandstand about all of the "aid" she "needs."
Lady Minneapolis would have to raise her sales and income taxes quite a bit to raise $77.4 million (the 2015 LGA share).

VAStationDude
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby VAStationDude » August 21st, 2015, 11:25 am

Wealthier people use government to exclude less wealthy people from their neighborhoods, cities and schools. Minneapolis is a net contributor to state finances due to our large employment and retail base.

We're actually very well off compared to Denver and Portland. Neither city has two urban lines comparable to either Hiawatha or Central. SW (a good alignment) is better than at least a couple lines in Denver. Seattle is getting a kick ass urban extension but comparing us to them is only slight less absurd than a comparison with Manhattan.

Doom and gloom predictions about the coming collapse of X is lazy and absurdly stupid. If the libertarian cranks had been right we'd be shelling out $200 for a bag of groceries and cashing social security checks with wheelbarrows of cash.

acs
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby acs » August 21st, 2015, 11:28 am

Also, historically individual cities could not levy their own sales taxes and as far as I know still can't levy income taxes. Everything went to the state or county as far as those two go.

amiller92
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby amiller92 » August 21st, 2015, 11:28 am

Lady Minneapolis would have to raise her sales and income taxes quite a bit to raise $77.4 million (the 2015 LGA share).
Huh? The $77.4 million comes from sales and income taxes collected by the state. That's got to be way less (as it should be) than total sales and income taxes collected in Minneapolis.

For example, the Mayor's 2015 budget includes $75 million in sales tax revenue. The city gets a small fraction of the total sales taxes collected in the city, so, yeah, if the city was allowed to tax itself, it would not seem difficult for it to generate as much or more than it currently gets in "aid."

ETA: Btw, the Mayor's budget also shows $68 million in LGA for 2015 (not including Independent Boards)
Last edited by amiller92 on August 21st, 2015, 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

amiller92
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby amiller92 » August 21st, 2015, 11:31 am

Also, historically individual cities could not levy their own sales taxes and as far as I know still can't levy income taxes. Everything went to the state or county as far as those two go.
Whether cities can levy sales and income taxes depends on what the state empowers them to do. Our state has decided that cities cannot do those thing and instead, keeps state-level control of the purse strings. Thus we have local government "aid" because local governments are not allowed to tax themselves without approval from the legislature.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby trigonalmayhem » August 21st, 2015, 11:43 am

If you really think that's how things are working, then you really need to get your head out of liberal lala land. Determining who the takers and who the makers are is far more complicated than that but I suspect you may not want to go down that path for fear of what you might find.
Spoken like someone who benefits from the current arrangement and resorts to creative accounting practices to justify it.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby trigonalmayhem » August 21st, 2015, 11:53 am

I'm not sure exactly when crapping on the Minnesota Miracle got cool with all of the StrongTownKidz, but were it not for that legislation and some of the other accompanying elements, Minneapolis would have taken a much harder hit in the 70's and 80's. It's easy now, when Minneapolis is riding relatively high, to say that it should go on its own. But the whole idea was a rather quaint one, that the whole state does better when those areas in need get a hand from those doing well.

Clearly, Minneapolis would be better off if kids growing up in poorer rural areas went to truly horrible schools.
Wasn't one of the main reasons the city took a hit the result of a combination of white flight and balkanization of the metro as the suburbs had a bidding war on who could give more tax breaks to lure business out of the city? How are those tax breaks working out for golden valley these days?

acs
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby acs » August 21st, 2015, 11:54 am

If you really think that's how things are working, then you really need to get your head out of liberal lala land. Determining who the takers and who the makers are is far more complicated than that but I suspect you may not want to go down that path for fear of what you might find.
Spoken like someone who benefits from the current arrangement and resorts to creative accounting practices to justify it.
Why yes, as a Minneapolis resident I do quite enjoy the benefits of this arrangement, such as artificially low property taxes and sales taxes. Heaven forbid how high the cost of living in this city would be if we had to pay for all this city's schools, healthcare and welfare all by ourselves.

VAStationDude
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby VAStationDude » August 21st, 2015, 11:57 am

I'm not sure exactly when crapping on the Minnesota Miracle got cool with all of the StrongTownKidz, but were it not for that legislation and some of the other accompanying elements, Minneapolis would have taken a much harder hit in the 70's and 80's. It's easy now, when Minneapolis is riding relatively high, to say that it should go on its own. But the whole idea was a rather quaint one, that the whole state does better when those areas in need get a hand from those doing well.

Clearly, Minneapolis would be better off if kids growing up in poorer rural areas went to truly horrible schools.
Wasn't one of the main reasons the city took a hit the result of a combination of white flight and balkanization of the metro as the suburbs had a bidding war on who could give more tax breaks to lure business out of the city? How are those tax breaks working out for golden valley these days?
You clearly don't understand the Minnesota Miracle.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby trigonalmayhem » August 21st, 2015, 11:57 am

You never ride the bus do you?

amiller92
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby amiller92 » August 21st, 2015, 11:59 am

If you really think that's how things are working, then you really need to get your head out of liberal lala land. Determining who the takers and who the makers are is far more complicated than that but I suspect you may not want to go down that path for fear of what you might find.
Spoken like someone who benefits from the current arrangement and resorts to creative accounting practices to justify it.
Why yes, as a Minneapolis resident I do quite enjoy the benefits of this arrangement, such as artificially low property taxes and sales taxes. Heaven forbid how high the cost of living in this city would be if we had to pay for all this city's schools, healthcare and welfare all by ourselves.
LGA is 6% of the city's budget. I think we could handle replacing it, especially if it came with not having to chip in for other cities' costs too.
Last edited by amiller92 on August 21st, 2015, 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MNdible
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby MNdible » August 21st, 2015, 12:01 pm

Wasn't one of the main reasons the city took a hit the result of a combination of white flight and balkanization of the metro as the suburbs had a bidding war on who could give more tax breaks to lure business out of the city? How are those tax breaks working out for golden valley these days?
Obviously, the hit was a result of a vast array of macro-economic and societal forces, most of which were well beyond the ability of the state, region, or individual cities to meaningfully influence. But coincidentally, the Minnesota Miracle did include legislation designed to help staunch the beggar-thy-neighbor tendencies which were rampant across the country.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby trigonalmayhem » August 21st, 2015, 12:05 pm

Wasn't one of the main reasons the city took a hit the result of a combination of white flight and balkanization of the metro as the suburbs had a bidding war on who could give more tax breaks to lure business out of the city? How are those tax breaks working out for golden valley these days?
Obviously, the hit was a result of a vast array of macro-economic and societal forces, most of which were well beyond the ability of the state, region, or individual cities to meaningfully influence. But coincidentally, the Minnesota Miracle did include legislation designed to help staunch the beggar-thy-neighbor tendencies which were rampant across the country.
They didn't work very well. We're still fighting amongst ourselves over slices of the pie just in a different forum. The city still loses, especially in the state house.

MNdible
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby MNdible » August 21st, 2015, 12:20 pm

Didn't work very well compared to what? Doing nothing? Kvetching repeatedly?

trigonalmayhem

Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby trigonalmayhem » August 21st, 2015, 12:23 pm

It didn't solve the problem and it added another layer of complexity. So you get the same result with more bureaucratic overhead and confusion. That's a lose.

MNdible
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby MNdible » August 21st, 2015, 12:27 pm

It didn't solve the problem and it added another layer of complexity. So you get the same result with more bureaucratic overhead and confusion. That's a lose.
OK, so if a solution doesn't completely solve the problem and only, for example, makes the region a nationally admired example of good government and regional management while at the same time supporting the region's top-tier economic vitality, then it's a failure and should be avoided. Got it.

LakeCharles
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby LakeCharles » August 21st, 2015, 12:36 pm

This is a great discussion. I feel we're really coming together to find a solution here.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby trigonalmayhem » August 21st, 2015, 12:38 pm

I'm glad we've got Minnesota's number one cheerleader here to be as condescending as possible.

amiller92
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Re: Gold Line (Gateway Corridor BRT)

Postby amiller92 » August 21st, 2015, 12:41 pm

If you really think that's how things are working, then you really need to get your head out of liberal lala land. Determining who the takers and who the makers are is far more complicated than that but I suspect you may not want to go down that path for fear of what you might find.
Spoken like someone who benefits from the current arrangement and resorts to creative accounting practices to justify it.
Why yes, as a Minneapolis resident I do quite enjoy the benefits of this arrangement, such as artificially low property taxes and sales taxes. Heaven forbid how high the cost of living in this city would be if we had to pay for all this city's schools, healthcare and welfare all by ourselves.
Sorry to keep harping on this, but doing some more back of the envelope math, and starting from the $75 million in sales (and other) tax revenue for the city, we can get a rough approximation of the balance of payments.

The city's portion of sales tax is .5%, plus some specific items/areas with an extra .25%. Let's just use a straight .75% for the city, which will actually make things look worse for Minneapolis than using the real, lower, rate. .75% implies $10,000,000,000 in annual taxed sales within the city (ignoring the "other taxes" whatever they are). The state's sales tax cut is 6.88%, implying $688,000,000 in sales tax revenues generated within the city of Minneapolis going into state coffers. With $68-77 million of that coming back in LGA.

Not that the city shouldn't be contributing to the administration of the rest of the state, but it sure seems like you could cover some schools, health care and welfare for $600+ million, and we've not yet begun to consider income taxes.

Using an even rougher approximation for income taxes, Minneapolis is around 7.4% of the state's population, so if we assume that it generates 7.4% of individual income revenue (an incorrect assumption), that works out to about $1.2 billion in total income tax revenue from the city, or close to $2 billion as a very rough estimate of revenue flow from the city to the state for these two taxes.


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