Green Line / Central Corridor construction thread (archive)

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby MNdible » January 21st, 2014, 9:50 am

I could be wrong, but I'd wager that the train will be at its fullest between the University and Downtown Minneapolis, so it seems like that's the last place you'd want to be forcing people to transfer onto already full trains.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby twincitizen » January 21st, 2014, 10:19 am

Tcmetro wrote:I wonder if the 16 will actually be able to attract a decent ridership, or will it have to be reduced in frequency more. I would like to see the 16 moved to 5th and 6th in Saint Paul, especially considering it will be rerouted to Marion St.
The planned frequency is already pretty low at 20' peak / 30' off-peak, so there's not much room for reducing that even further. I am also curious if the ridership will warrant this level of service, but I can't see the route being dropped down to hourly service or outright eliminated. The re-route to serve Marion (which loses 94B service) is a welcome change.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby MSPtoMKE » January 21st, 2014, 11:56 am

The 16 is proposed to run every 20 minutes at all times except overnight:
http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... /016.2.pdf

Realistically, I would assume it will change to every 30 minutes at some point in the evening before the hourly owl schedule starts. I would say the same thing about a lot of the buses with new 20 minute service (63, 65, 67, 87)

Speaking of which, the Green Line isn't proposed to have quite as long of a span of service as the Blue Line. Is is supposed to run from 5am to 1am, so about an hour later start and possibly no Friday/Saturday 2am service.
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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby twincitizen » January 21st, 2014, 12:29 pm

My mistake on the frequency. I thought it was 30' off peak. Perhaps that was in an earlier revision of the service restructuring plan.

I think one of the unspoken benefits of keeping this route is how easily it could be expanded (double the frequency and/or use articulated buses) or extended (to Target Field) during train service disruptions.

To MNdible's question: Keeping the route shorter and out of downtown Minneapolis increases reliability and decreases the number of buses/operators needed to run the route at 20' frequency. I'm sure you already know this, but those service hours will be re-allocated to the N-S feeder routes and new Route 83. Continuing to run Route 16 into downtown Minneapolis would remove service from other places. With our limited operational budget, you gotta make trade-offs, and this is a good one.

This discussion got me thinking: I'm sure it's too late now, but I hope they use a new number for the University Avenue bus route. It's just not the Route 16 anymore, it's something else. It has a new route out of downtown St. Paul (via Marion) and doesn't go to downtown Minneapolis. It should be re-named to reflect those pretty serious changes. I'd think re-naming the route might help our older (and/or mentally disabled) riders dissociate the route number from the old service patterns.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » January 21st, 2014, 12:43 pm

If nothing else, we should retire the route number 16 like sport's teams retire jersey numbers.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby MSPtoMKE » January 21st, 2014, 1:05 pm

twincitizen wrote:My mistake on the frequency. I thought it was 30' off peak. Perhaps that was in an earlier revision of the service restructuring plan.

This discussion got me thinking: I'm sure it's too late now, but I hope they use a new number for the University Avenue bus route. It's just not the Route 16 anymore, it's something else. It has a new route out of downtown St. Paul (via Marion) and doesn't go to downtown Minneapolis. It should be re-named to reflect those pretty serious changes. I'd think re-naming the route might help our older (and/or mentally disabled) riders dissociate the route number from the old service patterns.
You're right, I think at one point it was proposed to run every 30 minutes off peak, but that must have been a preliminary plan, because the Concept Plan also shows 20 minute service. Maybe it was from the plan that included having the 67 run down Fairview and the silly Route 60 Hamline/Victoria circulator.

Good point about the route number. It is also really a St. Paul based route now more than it ever was, so a number in the 60-89 range may be called for. Route 60 or 66 perhaps? If I had my druthers, I would have extended it along 4th and University to 15th to connect to Dinkytown and Route 3 (and the future route 30), but oh well.
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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby woofner » January 21st, 2014, 4:43 pm

Tcmetro wrote:I didn't notice this before, but the route 83 bus proposal was modified in November to serve Har Mar.

http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... /083.3.pdf
Glad to hear this, as the northern terminus as approved in 2012 seemed pointlessly weak to me. But I gotta wonder why they couldn't spare 5 minutes to connect to all the Roseville locals at Rosedale Transit Center, as was depicted as a 'future consideration' in the concept plan.
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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby sad panda » January 22nd, 2014, 9:34 am

Opens Saturday June 14, 2014.

http://www.metrotransit.org/greenline for the announcement and celebration activities.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby xandrex » January 22nd, 2014, 9:58 am

MSPtoMKE wrote:Speaking of which, the Green Line isn't proposed to have quite as long of a span of service as the Blue Line. Is is supposed to run from 5am to 1am, so about an hour later start and possibly no Friday/Saturday 2am service.
According to Metro Transit's Green Line starting date annoucement, the line runs from 4 a.m. to 1 a.m. every day.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby MSPtoMKE » January 22nd, 2014, 10:15 am

Yep, just saw that, although the Green Line service change information says 5 am. I would be more inclined to go with the more recent information of 4 am.

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... Line.2.pdf

Edit: The project Fact Sheet says 5 am and it was released this month, so who knows?
http://www.metrocouncil.org/News-Events ... Sheet.aspx
Last edited by MSPtoMKE on January 22nd, 2014, 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby pfreyre » January 22nd, 2014, 10:40 am

The date has been set. Service starts on Saturday, June 14th!

http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... 78411.html

[Edit]I didn't realize someone had already posted the date, whoops.[/Edit]
Last edited by pfreyre on January 22nd, 2014, 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby mulad » January 22nd, 2014, 11:19 am

I took a ride down the line on route 50 yesterday, from Rice Street to the West Bank (Willey Hall). My main intention was to record some of the speed limits, though I didn't get all of them. For the most part, the line will be 35 mph, though there are 20 mph signs in the immediate areas of some station platforms. The Rice Street station is signed for 15 mph. Some track west of Rice Street is set at 25 mph, possibly due to the crossovers near there and/or the transition from side-running to center-running and/or the fact that the overhead wire is only a single conductor at that point, as opposed to the true catenary along most of the line. The curve at Fairview appears to be signed at 25 mph, and the speed is 10 mph for the turn from University Avenue onto 29th Street for the short segment of running next to the UMN transitway. I'm not sure of the speed zones in downtown St. Paul or in most of the UMN campus area, though I did see a 30 mph sign on the westernmost portion of the Washington Avenue Transit Mall (before the segment where buses run on the rail guideway), though I may have accidentally seen the sign for buses.

I talked to a consultant at the St. Paul streetcar study meeting last week about catenary, and he was saying that single-wire overhead lines could be used at speeds above 25 mph, though it requires substations to be placed closer together and doesn't handle current loads as high as the two wires and stringers of proper catenary -- partly explaining why streetcar systems in the U.S. have been designed for single-vehicle operation rather than the 2-4 vehicle trains of LRT. But that confuses me a bit, since I believe the segment of the Green Line that goes up the hill by the capitol along Robert Street and University Avenue only has single-wire stuff -- That hill certainly takes the wind out of me when I bike it, though the LRT guideway has a significantly reduced grade (still peaking at about 6%, I believe). I haven't checked what the speed is supposed to be there -- maybe they'll keep it pretty low.

There are a lot of tram-style train signals along the Green Line (the white vertical/horizontal bars). I didn't really notice them until a few miles into the trip, so I don't think they're fully functioning on the western end of the line yet. I remember seeing a bunch of them packed together near Raymond Avenue -- they seemed to be overkill, like three in a row in less than half a block. Certainly reinforces my belief that LRT tends to be over-engineered. I'm sure there's some logic to it, but I'm hard-pressed to say what it is at the moment. The Washington Avenue Transit Mall also bristles with an overabundance of signal equipment for trains ...and buses ...and pedestrians ...and cyclists...

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » January 22nd, 2014, 11:40 am

What's dangerous about the signals on campus is that I believe they're currently timed for trains. At Church St the buses will stop at the stop lights before they get on the tracks to let trains pass through. Pedestrians are held back as the train goes by. But obviously there's no train, so most pedestrians ignore the lights and just walk. I've even seen buses run the red light.

There are 3 stop lights between Coffman and the East Bank station, I think they should all be taken out and we just treat this as shared space where you need to have half an IQ point to look around and stay alive.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby Tom H. » January 22nd, 2014, 12:39 pm

I think the density of signage and signals along the Washington Ave Mall is a major contributing factor to user confusion. I know a lot (if not all) of this is dictated by some uniform signage code, but it would be so much clearer to have a sign that says "Bikes and Buses Only", rather than the standard "Do Not Enter" sign with a small-lettered sign underneath saying "Except Authorized Vehicles". Eventually, your brain just gives up trying to process all the stimuli.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby mplser » January 22nd, 2014, 1:55 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:What's dangerous about the signals on campus is that I believe they're currently timed for trains. At Church St the buses will stop at the stop lights before they get on the tracks to let trains pass through. Pedestrians are held back as the train goes by. But obviously there's no train, so most pedestrians ignore the lights and just walk. I've even seen buses run the red light.

There are 3 stop lights between Coffman and the East Bank station, I think they should all be taken out and we just treat this as shared space where you need to have half an IQ point to look around and stay alive.
in theory, I would agree, but i see a problem with this happening at this location, with the amount of drunk students stumbling around

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » January 22nd, 2014, 2:13 pm

Nobody stumbles drunk in the middle of the day. In fact, in my over 8 years on campus, I've never seen a drunk person stumbling across the mall.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby talindsay » January 22nd, 2014, 2:17 pm

The drunk students aren't on the transit mall - the mall is lined by classrooms, offices, and daytime uses. The drunk students are in Dinkytown and Stadium Village. A few of them living in Middlebrook Hall or Yudof Hall may walk along the Mall after a night of drinking but that's few.

The bigger issue is cell phones, since the students have become walking zombies as they stare at their devices.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby mplser » January 22nd, 2014, 5:11 pm

I never said middle of the day, and yeah cellphones too i guess.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby minnyapple » January 29th, 2014, 2:58 pm

Is everything on the line complete now? Besides some maintenance and finishing touch ups. Are they testing the entire line now too? I know they were testing in the university area back in September.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby Tcmetro » January 29th, 2014, 3:02 pm

Pretty much, last I heard they have to get more train cars and train in new operators.


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