Green Line / Central Corridor construction thread (archive)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby IllogicalJake » May 14th, 2014, 7:42 am

"People are riding it are saying, 'Hey, it's taking too long.' It's kind of like letting you in the house before it's even finished," he said. "We'd prefer not to let you in until it's finished, but everyone wants to see it. Then people get into the new house and say, 'We don't like this, we don't like that.' Well, we told you it wasn't done yet."
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

helsinki
Landmark Center
Posts: 298
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 2:01 am

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby helsinki » May 14th, 2014, 8:11 am

Chauncey87 wrote:Over one hour to travel only 11 miles. :/
As others have noted, it will not take this long by the time the line opens.

More importantly, the shock expressed by the long time required to travel such a seeming short distance betrays, in my opinion, a misunderstanding of how people will use the line. Certainly some will board at the Interchange and get off at the Union Depot stop; most likely, however, this will be a relatively small number of overall passengers. Most people will get on somewhere in between and get off somewhere in between.

An analogy might help: it's less than 11 miles from Wall Street to the Bronx. A subway ride will take more than an hour. Urban rail systems are meant for moving huge amounts of people very efficiently while requiring little space. It's an upside if it goes super fast, but going super-fast isn't the sole determinant of success.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6203
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby twincitizen » May 14th, 2014, 8:35 am

mullen wrote:there are too many stops. is this that difficult to figure out? too many stops people.
Actually it has very little to do with the number of stops. The extra 3 stops that were added in 2010 only added ~2 minutes to the overall time. The deceleration and dwell time at each station is something like 45 seconds. The deceleration time is actually less than it is on the Blue Line because the trains only reach 30MPH in the first place, rather than 45MPH like Hiawatha.

It's clear that signal timing is the number one issue here. Followed by permitted top speed. Aside from the Wash Ave. Bridge and trench, is the train even permitted to travel more than 30MPH along the route? What's the speed limit on University for cars? For LRVs?

I'm not saying the reported trip times are ok...that's a potential disaster. But it's not really the number of stops.

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » May 14th, 2014, 8:35 am

I'll admit to commenting before I read the article, which I now regret. This really should have been an article titled "Central Corridor signal timing work ongoing." They could have used most of the same text, and even the same interviews and investigation (timing the train, though it would have no point in a revised article) to explain that engineers are working on getting the signals working properly. If they want to talk about problems they're having getting it to work, or reasons it might not be fixed on time, but the article makes it sound like engineers fucked up big time and "working as intented" the line takes over an hour, which just isn't the case.

C- reporting MPR.

seanrichardryan
Capella Tower
Posts: 3935
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul
Contact:

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby seanrichardryan » May 14th, 2014, 9:15 am

"Central Corridor signal timing is off, but you'll never believe what happened next!" CLicK HeRe!
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 529
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby IllogicalJake » May 14th, 2014, 9:21 am

FISHMANPET wrote:I'll admit to commenting before I read the article, which I now regret. This really should have been an article titled "Central Corridor signal timing work ongoing." They could have used most of the same text, and even the same interviews and investigation (timing the train, though it would have no point in a revised article) to explain that engineers are working on getting the signals working properly. If they want to talk about problems they're having getting it to work, or reasons it might not be fixed on time, but the article makes it sound like engineers fucked up big time and "working as intented" the line takes over an hour, which just isn't the case.

C- reporting MPR.
Yeah, exactly why I posted that quote above. I think it's a little useless to be even reporting on it right now – St. Paul only just installed the necessary equipment and it's not up and running properly yet.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

xandrex
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1358
Joined: January 30th, 2013, 11:14 am

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby xandrex » May 14th, 2014, 12:44 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:I'll admit to commenting before I read the article, which I now regret. This really should have been an article titled "Central Corridor signal timing work ongoing."
...and would anyone have clicked to read?

Not saying that they weren't trying to goad people a little with the headline, but outside of this forum most people aren't transit experts. With trains now running throughout the day, it's not a bad time to be writing stories about it since many people are now seeing these empty trains roll by and affect traffic. So it's likely that someone from MPR called up the Metro Transit folks and was talking about the line and the testing and the PR person mentioned that the line is currently not running at full speed due to signal/timing/whatever issues (but giving the usual government assurance of, "we're working on this issue and hope to have it sorted out by the time the project launches"). Really it's just holding feet to the fire for accountability...with a headline meant to generate clicks.

ECtransplant
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 751
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:56 am

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby ECtransplant » May 14th, 2014, 1:54 pm

helsinki wrote: An analogy might help: it's less than 11 miles from Wall Street to the Bronx. A subway ride will take more than an hour
It takes 35 minutes to get from the Bronx to Wall St on the 2 or the 5 train. http://goog.gl/maps/vI9Kd

talindsay
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1553
Joined: September 29th, 2012, 10:41 am

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby talindsay » May 14th, 2014, 2:02 pm

Given MPR's less-than-stellar history of demonstrating their ability to be disinterested, objective reporters on this project, I'm not at all surprised that they chose to run with the first negative thing they could find. I've generally liked MPR but their political axe against the Green Line is really disappointing and I have a hard time seeing this article as anything more than a pot shot from that vantage point.

helsinki
Landmark Center
Posts: 298
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 2:01 am

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby helsinki » May 14th, 2014, 2:24 pm

ECtransplant wrote:
helsinki wrote: An analogy might help: it's less than 11 miles from Wall Street to the Bronx. A subway ride will take more than an hour
It takes 35 minutes to get from the Bronx to Wall St on the 2 or the 5 train. http://goog.gl/maps/vI9Kd
Are those express trains, though? Makes a huge difference.

ECtransplant
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 751
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:56 am

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby ECtransplant » May 14th, 2014, 2:30 pm

Yes it's express. Which is why the stretch of University should have been a transit mall or tunnel.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2298
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby EOst » May 14th, 2014, 2:39 pm

helsinki wrote:
ECtransplant wrote:
helsinki wrote: An analogy might help: it's less than 11 miles from Wall Street to the Bronx. A subway ride will take more than an hour
It takes 35 minutes to get from the Bronx to Wall St on the 2 or the 5 train. http://goog.gl/maps/vI9Kd
Are those express trains, though? Makes a huge difference.
Those are indeed Express trains, which really isn't a fair comparison. It takes much, much longer than that on a local train.

Would it be nice if our LRT infrastructure could accommodate express trains and the like? You betcha. But end-to-end speed just isn't the point of all this.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2298
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby EOst » May 14th, 2014, 2:40 pm

ECtransplant wrote:Yes it's express. Which is why the stretch of University should have been a transit mall or tunnel.
Would it really be worth spending twice as much money for the Target Field -> Union Station trip to be 30 minutes (or 25, maybe) instead of 40?

MSPtoMKE
Target Field
Posts: 504
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 8:15 pm
Location: Loring Heights
Contact:

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby MSPtoMKE » May 14th, 2014, 4:29 pm

I measured a roughly 11 mile segment of the 6 train (a local) from Brooklyn Bridge to the Bronx and it is scheduled at roughly 50 minutes. And even that isn't a fair comparison, since it is comparing a grade separated subway to a surface light rail line. I am sure Metro Transit will be able to shave time off the current speeds. It is something to be concerned about, but not yet time to say the sky is falling.

Wasn't the published 40 minute travel time from Central Station to Nicollet Mall, or am I making that up?
My flickr photos.

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3821
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby Silophant » May 14th, 2014, 4:34 pm

Since anecdotes = data, I drove back to Dinkytown from Midway on University at 2:00 today. Waiting for the first of the 3 cycles that it took me to get across Snelling, a train overtook me. I was not able to catch up to it all the way to Stadium Village, so the train is faster than at least some car trips.

seanrichardryan
Capella Tower
Posts: 3935
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul
Contact:

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby seanrichardryan » May 14th, 2014, 4:38 pm

So besides this MPR NON-story, I was driving along Uni today and noticed that most of the railings on the station areas are stainless steel. Well, they already look like crap from salt spray and the like with blotches and rust spots. Why oh why can't we just design good, easy to maintain transit stations? (Also, it took my 20 minutes from Prior to Lex...)
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

Chauncey87
Landmark Center
Posts: 200
Joined: August 20th, 2012, 9:53 pm

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby Chauncey87 » May 14th, 2014, 8:06 pm

"We continue to work on the testing and signalization," Haigh said.

She also pointed out that most transit riders will be making trips within the corridor, rather than traveling the length of it like a commuter rail line. "This is really about station-to-station service," she said.

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... source=rss

I realize I need to take a step back and remind myself that there is still a month to fix the trip time issues.

However this quote really bothers me. While I am only one "choice" rider and that may not make that big of a deal in the whole scope of things. I remembered reading that this line was going to re-connect the link between both down towns. Putting in rail how much each core means to each other. I took that to mean being able to park in one of the large ABC ramps and train it to StP for any number of events. I guess in a months time we will see just how fast it takes from dt to dt.

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2802
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby mulad » May 14th, 2014, 8:08 pm

I made some travel time graphs of the 50 for comparison (based on the schedule) since I couldn't verbalize the variation in trip length very well. I hope to add the 16 soon. By comparison, the Green Line travel-time matrix I've posted in the past says 41 minutes end-to-end, 35 minutes Central to Nicollet. 4th & Minnesota (for westbound buses) and Cedar & 5th (eastbound) are roughly equivalent to Central station in St. Paul.

Image

Image

This is the spreadsheet.

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4602
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » May 14th, 2014, 8:18 pm

Chauncey87 wrote: However this quote really bothers me. While I am only one "choice" rider and that may not make that big of a deal in the whole scope of things. I remembered reading that this line was going to re-connect the link between both down towns. Putting in rail how much each core means to each other. I took that to mean being able to park in one of the large ABC ramps and train it to StP for any number of events. I guess in a months time we will see just how fast it takes from dt to dt.
Isn't parking generally cheaper in Stp? Or does it become pricier during events?

And I'll agree that most trips aren't going to be between Target Field Station and Union Depot. If you want to go downtown to downtown the 94 is a faster option, even though it's a crappier experience. Most people will be going between neighborhoods along the corridor or to/from a single downtown from/to a different neighborhood. But it's still a pretty shitty justification for long travel times. Point to point the Green Line should take as long as driving, and preferably be faster.

web

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby web » May 14th, 2014, 8:25 pm

yes too many stops. adding those 2 extra stops means close to 8 - 10 extra minutes


Return to “Transportation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests