Hennepin Avenue Downtown Reconstruction 2020-21

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
intercomnut
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Hennepin Avenue Downtown Reconstruction 2020-21

Postby intercomnut » April 5th, 2016, 8:42 pm

The City will be reconstructing Hennepin Avenue between Washington and 12th Street in 2020. But, they're applying for a federal grant, so they need a basic "what mode gets how much space?" plan for the feds by July.

They presented their current proposal to the DMNA tonight.

The main portion (4th to 10th) will be four lanes (13' outer lanes and 11' inner lanes). The sidewalks will be reduced to 18' on each side. There will also be a 7' protected bikeway on each side, which will float behind the bus stops.

The portion from 4th to Washington will be similar, except there will be 10' left turn lanes at 3rd as well as at Washington. This will impact the sidewalk for half of each of those blocks.

They're planning the same travel lane configuration from 10th to 12th but haven't determined the pedestrian or bike facilities since there's 20 fewer feet of ROW.

Someone asked why the travel lanes were so wide and the planner said that's what state aid rules require. But they said they might be able to get an exception made for this corridor.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Downtown)

Postby twincitizen » April 6th, 2016, 6:34 am

Outer lane widths include the gutter space, so a 13' curb lane here is really an 11' lane with a 2' gutter pan. On streets with parking, you wouldn't see this, because the gutter pan would be part of the parking lane. Could they bring the lanes down to 10'8", as has been done on other streets? Maybe. But across the 4 traffic lanes that will only buy you a little over a foot...

mattaudio
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby mattaudio » April 6th, 2016, 9:55 am

Hennepin needs dedicated bus lanes far more than it needs four car lanes.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby MNdible » April 6th, 2016, 10:18 am

Obviously there's nothing that can be done about it now, but what Hennepin Avenue really needs is another 20' of ROW (at least). It's so critical to the overall transportation system in terms of the micro-regional connectivity that it (and only it) provides, to the point that it really needs nice wide sidewalks, protected bike baths, dedicated bus lanes, and also four lanes of auto traffic.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby BBMplsMN » April 27th, 2016, 11:11 am

Preliminary proposal for Hennepin Ave. Interested to see if they can make this work for all parties. Seems like they're cramming a lot into this one road.

But checkout the last proposed concept (Washington Ave to 4th St - NB left turn lane). Southbound traffic would come to a standstill when buses are stopped picking up/dropping off and a vehicle in the other lane is trying to make a left turn.

http://www.journalmpls.com/news/2016/04 ... -hennepin/

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby mnmike » April 27th, 2016, 11:30 am

I love how just when some of the trees were finally growing in from the last streetscape, they will all be ripped out and replaced with little ones again. We are really good at that in this city.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby grant1simons2 » April 27th, 2016, 11:56 am

That's something that's good to bring up to staff working on this project before 2018. I think there's time to work that out.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby mattaudio » April 27th, 2016, 11:59 am

I think that's why they propose far-side bus stops on those blocks, so the bus would stop in the near half of the block, where the left turn queue would be blocking the left lane in the far half of the block. But still, buses would be stopped by any motorists queuing to take a right, either to yield ROW to pedestrians or bicyclists crossing the intersection, or because the street to which they intend to turn does not have room for them to proceed through the intersection during peak times. This proposal has some interesting characteristics - I like the bus islands - but in general it is wholly inadequate for sidewalk users and for transit movement. But I have a streets post with some alternatives in the coming days.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby grant1simons2 » April 27th, 2016, 12:04 pm

Here's the full layout

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 178852.pdf

As well as the presentation that occurred on 4/25,

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 178853.pdf

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby MNdible » April 27th, 2016, 1:04 pm

People are going to lose their minds with the gridlock that results if they build this as shown.

intercomnut
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby intercomnut » April 27th, 2016, 1:17 pm

In general it is wholly inadequate for sidewalk users.
At the very least, the planners are almost certainly going to pursue a variance for the lane widths, which may enable them to cut a foot off each of them. They can do a lot with another four feet.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby woofner » April 27th, 2016, 2:03 pm

A giant ravine will open in the earth and demons with pointy pitchforks will come streaming out if they build this as shown.

Which is to say, the proposed layout is almost exactly the same as the street is today.
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mattaudio
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby mattaudio » April 27th, 2016, 2:15 pm

Which is to say, Lisa Goodman won't even have to bother getting the design changed at the last minute.

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woofner
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby woofner » April 27th, 2016, 2:20 pm

Why would she? All she wanted was the protected bike lanes and for everything else to stay the same. And that's what she got.

It's pretty misleading that they only pictured two buses at each stop area, when already it's common to see a 4, 6, 12, and 61 all lined up together. On top of those, there will be two additional routes added to Hennepin in the next 10 years (the Hennepin aBRT and the 15). This design will add several minutes to a bus trip through downtown in 2025.
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby RailBaronYarr » April 27th, 2016, 2:29 pm

People are going to lose their minds with the gridlock that results if they build this as shown.
This is interesting, because traffic models assuming 0.25% annual traffic growth until 2040 show travel times from the Mississippi River to 16th St:

Northbound AM Peak 6.9 minutes (current design) 7.6 (proposed)
Southbound AM Peak 6.6 (current) 7.2 (proposed)
Northbound PM Peak 10.3 (current) 9.4 (proposed)
Southbound PM Peak 7.8 (current) 8.4 (proposed)

So, I dunno.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby grant1simons2 » April 27th, 2016, 2:34 pm

Could potentially speed up buses as well with the new configuration.

The biggest cause for delay for the buses on Hennepin are boarding times (the proposed stations look brt ready), getting behind bikes, and stacking. This design could potentially fix all of those. Besides the stacking. Thats more just because of route changes.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby mattaudio » April 27th, 2016, 2:38 pm

The existing configuration is (in theory at least) 2+ lanes for cars, and 2 dedicated bike/bus lanes (plus right turns). This proposed configuration doubles automobile capacity and removes transit advantage (not that transit advantage is doing much on Hennepin). I don't see this speeding up buses, but significantly slowing them down.

grant1simons2
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby grant1simons2 » April 27th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Based on problems I see while riding a 6 from my apartment in Marcy Holmes to Laurel, thats what I've come up with.

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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby Silophant » April 27th, 2016, 3:05 pm

I don't see how removing the completely unenforced transit advantage would slow buses down. If anything, getting bikes out of that lane will speed buses (and cars) up.
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Re: Hennepin Avenue Reconstruction (Washington to 12th)

Postby MNdible » April 27th, 2016, 3:16 pm

As noted above, in the absence of left turn lanes and bus pull-outs, and with heavy pedestrian traffic making right turns more difficult than is typical, there will be effectively no through lane. Hennepin certainly isn't free-flowing now at most times of the day, but you at least have some confidence that if you drive in the through lane, you'll make it where you need to go.


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