Tunnels!

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
David Greene
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby David Greene » May 17th, 2017, 12:16 pm

What project?

mamundsen
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mamundsen » May 17th, 2017, 1:02 pm

I think "project" refers to the tile repair in this 94 project. http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projec ... oklyncntr/

Found the KSTP promo: http://kstp.com/traffic/rebuilding-minn ... ?cat=12546
It's the biggest bottleneck in the state and a huge overhaul will soon make your commute even worse. We wanted to ask every question we could about the Lowry Hill Tunnel project. To dig deeper, KSTP’s Josh Rosenthal:

• Went up in Chopper 5 with engineers
• Questioned the commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Transportation
• Tracked down the original designer
• Went deep inside the tunnel to show you what's being done

WATCH it live or set your DVR - this story is only on TV and it's only on 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS Wednesday, May 17 at 10 p.m.

David Greene
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby David Greene » May 17th, 2017, 2:26 pm

So yeah, no useful information. Par for the course, but it'll probably get ratings.

talindsay
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby talindsay » May 17th, 2017, 3:23 pm

Magic 8 ball says "Outlook not so good"

karen nelson
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby karen nelson » May 17th, 2017, 4:11 pm

Video of sled going throught Elon Musk small tunnel.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/12/1562 ... t-route-la

using tunnel for single car on sled makes no sense to me. Sure, may be a bit like ferries that carry peds and cars, but doesn't it make more sense to put people in pods and send them to transit stations.

David Greene
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby David Greene » May 18th, 2017, 10:40 am

What would make sense is putting retractable trolleys on cars and sending them through this tunnel to get 1.21 gigawatts of power into them.

go4guy
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby go4guy » May 25th, 2017, 7:54 am

I am not sure why so many are complaining about Musk's boring idea. The machine is used to dig the tunnel. He is a car company owner, so would use it for cars. But that doesn't mean it has to be used for cars. At the end of the day, it is still a tunnel that can be used for subways or LRT. A car company owner isn't going to build a mass transit system. But if his technology makes building out mass transit systems cheaper, we should all be applauding his efforts!

mplsjaromir
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mplsjaromir » May 25th, 2017, 8:06 am

He should make airplanes that you just drive your car onto. You could save so much time not having to rent a car.

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Anondson
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Anondson » May 27th, 2017, 5:12 pm

Elon teases with the Boring Company underground buses?

http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/1070 ... ctric-sled

Silophant
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Silophant » May 27th, 2017, 6:35 pm

Soooo... actual subways, now?

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Anondson
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Anondson » July 11th, 2017, 12:55 am

A second tunnel linking Denmark and Sweden is proposed.

http://www.poandpo.com/news_business/ne ... 862017330/

Vagueperson
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Vagueperson » July 11th, 2017, 6:59 am

Maybe we could do that with I-80 or I-90..

DanPatchToget
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby DanPatchToget » June 14th, 2018, 6:58 am

The Boring Company was selected by the City of Chicago to build an underground transit link between the Loop and O'Hare.

http://www.startribune.com/chicago-taps ... 485485031/

From a different article its stated it will only cost $1 billion to build and require no taxpayer money. Departures every 30 seconds and a fare of $1, and assumes people will buy products while on board using touch screens.

mplsjaromir
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mplsjaromir » June 14th, 2018, 7:48 am

At 500-2,000 people per hour per direction Musk's technology has the capacity of between 0.5 and 2 blue line trains per hour.

Silophant
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Silophant » June 14th, 2018, 7:58 am

Yeah. As long as there's no taxpayer money involved, then it's fine, but there's no way this gets built for less than $10B, or can be operated for $1 a ride.

mattaudio
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mattaudio » June 14th, 2018, 8:30 am

Wouldn't it be far cheaper to simply take out the two inner lanes of the Kennedy Expressway and convert that space into express tracks?

alexschief
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby alexschief » June 14th, 2018, 9:15 am

It's hard not to just roll your eyes at this. Boring a 17 mile tunnel for $1B has the feel of fantasy. Allowing a completely untested company to drill underneath your downtown and significant infrastructure is reckless. The Boring Company may yet develop some innovations that make tunneling faster and cheaper, and if they do so, it'll be a significant accomplishment. But the costs of major infrastructure projects are not just engineering costs or labor costs, there are massive regulatory costs and many (though not all) are in place for good reasons, and if Musk's attempt to end-around CEQA in Los Angeles is any indication, his strategy is simply to ignore the regulatory framework, which is a risk not just to him, or elected leaders, but also to the general public.

Then there's the issue of capacity. If this Chicago loop is at maximum capacity and carrying 2,000 passengers an hour, that's the equivalent of a single freeway lane. You could run normal express buses at two minute headways and achieve the same throughput comfortably. Or add eight more cars (not trains, cars) total to your existing blue line service. There are so many cheaper ways to achieve the same result using existing technology.

But above all, the biggest issue is that operating a transit service is not a engineering problem, it's an economics problem. Just a few years ago, Toronto opened the Union Pearson Express, a brand-new rapid rail service to their airport. They needed around 7,000 weekday riders at fares around CAD$25 to be sustainable. Instead, ridership peaked just around 3,000 weekday riders, and feel down to about 2,000. Eventually, fares were slashed, and weekday ridership is now around 10,000, but the system is still nowhere near paying for itself. Airport express trains are a great example of the disconnect between the type of transit service that business people and mayors want and the type of transit service that ordinary people want. Especially if the fare is high and a cheaper alternative is readily available, it's hard to see the ridership on this loop working out, even if it's perfectly safe and comfortable and works exactly as promised.

Tcmetro
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Tcmetro » June 14th, 2018, 9:43 am

The $1 billion doesn't seem like that much of a stretch as the tunnels will be quite small (the vehicles are basically van sized) and there are no stations. The downtown station will be in an existing cavern under a shopping mall.

Compounding the economics issue is the fact that this isn't even trying to serve a new market. The proposed stops (ORD Terminal 2 and Block 37) are essentially the same locations as Blue Line stops. Additionally, the Block 37 area is somewhat of a business destination, but heavy with government offices. A better destination would be River North/Streeterville which is where all the hotels and tourists are.

mattaudio
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mattaudio » June 14th, 2018, 10:17 am

This is totally the APM or Monorail of the 2020s... If this gets built, then a generation later there will be an impossible task of keeping vehicles going or finding new vehicles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_Airtrans
https://www.wired.com/2013/10/minnesota-zoo-monorail/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgantow ... id_Transit

mattaudio
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mattaudio » June 14th, 2018, 10:35 am

Getting back (a little closer) to reality, it seems like the best case for upgrading connectivity in Chicago would be a combination of:

- Tunneling to allow heavy rail through-routing through the Loop, e.g.
- Connecting Millenium Station and/or LaSalle St Station to Ogilvie Transportation Center
- Electrify more of the Metra lines (and/or consider rapid service on them, such as along the UP-North line)

- Route new HSR and/or Midwest regional Amtrak via a new O'Hare hub

- Improve an expand the O'Hare ATS east to this hub ala Miami and west to the new terminal complex.
- Also consider extending the ATS model to have secure carriages or trains connecting the airsides (I think Seattle once used this model for moving international arrivals to the south satellite) which would even allow check-ins at the central station and/or facilitate easier rail-air transfers.


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