Tunnels!

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
DanPatchToget
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby DanPatchToget » June 14th, 2018, 4:05 pm

I like the idea of upgrading the existing freight railroad right-of-way for faster and more frequent commuter service.

Assuming the tunnels are narrow, then that makes it impossible to modify it with larger vehicles, though they could do what Budapest does with their Metro Line 1. I like to call them minecarts because they are indeed that small. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW7k0P2JQ-I

Multimodal
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Multimodal » June 14th, 2018, 9:25 pm

What if this is the Facebook-ization or Google-ization of transit? Namely, “free” or low-cost services that *appear* cheaper than the public transit equivalent and thus compete against it, leading to the eventual privatization of transit?

This is much like people expect operating systems and apps and web sites to be cheap or free, but they are paying for it with their privacy and with endless ads.

#dystopianFuture

DanPatchToget
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby DanPatchToget » June 14th, 2018, 10:46 pm

Depends on who you ask and what location, but I think public transit is pretty cheap. Plus there are already ads on buses and trains, sometimes annoyingly wrapped all over the outside so its hard to see out.

But maybe you're thinking more along the lines of minding your own business on the bus or train when suddenly an audio ad plays on the intercom, and every station is an ad (think US Bank Stadium Station, but every station has a sponsor). And for each stop there are ads for surrounding places displayed on screens inside the bus or train.

I think I'm giving the marketing folks too many ideas.

mattaudio
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mattaudio » June 15th, 2018, 8:36 am

Wow, the Budapest metro cars look huge compared to Glasgow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3XS65Tjo6Q

MNdible
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby MNdible » June 15th, 2018, 9:41 am

The Clockwork Orange!

Sure seems like the new Chicago service is going to be hitting at taxi service and Uber, not public transit. It's a high speed, fairly expensive point to point service.

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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mattaudio » June 15th, 2018, 9:44 am

Isn't that what taxis or jitneys would excel at, on the existing Kennedy Expressway, assuming congestion pricing effectively ensured high speeds?

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Re: Tunnels!

Postby MNdible » June 15th, 2018, 9:48 am

If I recall, the tunnel was claiming it could provide 12 minute service, something no taxi could do regardless of congestion pricing.

I'm not claiming that Musk's numbers actually add up and he can make money doing this, but I do believe that a high-speed, express service at prices comparable to taxi service will be an attractive compliment to existing public transit options.

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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Jen » June 18th, 2018, 7:54 pm

While I am pretty interested to see how Musk’s speedy tunnel making machine turns out, I have some serious concerns about ridership. Specifically, there is no way in heck that they can get close to 2000 riders per hour.

The CTA has given an estimate of 100,000 Blue Line riders per day. This includes the two branches of the line that go west. The majority of the other riders on the O’hare branch get on and off before ORD. I can’t estimate how many riders are remaining, but I will point out that a very significant percentage are airport and airline employees.

Many of the articles about this project have incorrectly listed the price of a fare. It is $2.25 to ORD, and the same for return for the employees, $5 for the rest of us. At $25 each way, almost everyone who works at the airport is priced out.

This leaves the tourists and the business travelers. There are tourists that won’t get on public transportation because of simple ignorance of its existence (ridiculous, but true), or preconceived notions about it. Of course there is also the matter of no one visiting the city for 2-3 months in winter if they don’t have to.

I moved to Mpls recently but have spent my adult life as a bartender in downtown Chicago. I always remind the businessmen that there is a easy and cheap way to get to ORD, but they ALWAYS tell me that transportation is on the employer’s dime, so there is no reason to hop on the L. I think some of the would use the tunnel for time and curiosity reasons, but many will still get a cab or Uber that picks them up at their hotel, as already has been pointed out, the main concentration of hotels is in River North (although more are popping up in the Loop everyday). And speaking of hotels, all of the hotels near the airport are one stop down from the Blue Line. I don’t think that the people staying there will go back to the airport to get transport downtown when they already have it a block away.

None of this was meant to be negative, the idea of getting between the airport and the Loop in 12 minutes is exciting, right now it always takes more than the ridiculous 37 minutes that they quote, plus NO COST TO THE CITY (!!!) really can’t be beat.

mattaudio
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby mattaudio » June 19th, 2018, 7:05 am

Yep, business travelers take the easy option when expensing the travel. I had a meeting with a patent lawyer from my company who was in town last Thursday, and later that day we ran into each other walking towards the Blue Line platform. He was taking the Blue Line to MSP because it was just as easy if not easier and faster than taking a cab during the PM rush hour. Very few cities have transit that is just as fast as a cab, and we are lucky to be one. But I'm also failing to see the ridership for this, especially given low ridership for airport links in other cities such as Toronto or London.

Also, I doubt the taxpayers of Chicago are truly off the hook with this proposal.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby DanPatchToget » June 19th, 2018, 8:50 am

What if its fully built and operational, but a failure from a ridership and financial standpoint? What if its being built, there are major cost overruns, and Musk decides to abandon it?

Chicago is definitely not off the hook, and even if its successful there's no guarantee it will always be that way.

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niaxilin
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby niaxilin » June 19th, 2018, 5:12 pm

and Musk decides to abandon it?
Then we'll have some pretty cool urban tunnels to explore! Turn them into an underground rave destination. But people will have to Lyft or take the L to get there...

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Anondson
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Anondson » June 19th, 2018, 9:18 pm

Wired ran a story on the sensor systems in the new tunnel under Seattle.

https://www.wired.com/story/seattle-sr- ... ch-bertha/

Exhaust fans, jet fans, CO sensors, NOx sensors, particulate sensors, cameras...

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Tunnels!

Postby Multimodal » June 23rd, 2018, 7:48 am

If this skims the creme-de-la-creme of riders off the existing service, it will be only reinforce “public transit is for poor people” and will likely drive ridership on public transit lower.

This is designed to destroy public transit, not complement or enhance it. This is the gentrification of transit, ghetto-ization of transit, redlining of transit, white flight to the suburbs of transit.

Don’t forget Elon’s quote about the creepy people on public transit.

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Re: Tunnels!

Postby MNdible » June 25th, 2018, 8:43 am

But those creme-de-la-creme riders aren't using public transit today -- they're taking taxis, car services, and Uber.

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Re: Tunnels!

Postby Multimodal » June 25th, 2018, 8:51 am

But we’re moving to a future where driving is more difficult (fewer lanes dedicated to cars, more to transit, more LRT, etc.) so these creme-de-la-creme people will need to go somewhere.

The goal of Elon, Uber, etc., is to get all the profitable users and leave the dregs for what’s left of public transit. (And by ‘dregs’ I’m talking about profitability, not the value of human lives).

They will start at the most profitable, and then expand & work their way down the profit pyramid until they’ve captured any users who generate decent profits.

Society will be left with an under-funded, crappy network constantly in need of maintenance. The privatization of transit.

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Re: Tunnels!

Postby BoredAgain » June 25th, 2018, 11:45 am

Just so we're on the same page, transit (at least around here) used to be privately owned and operated, thought they made liberal use of the public ROW. I'm not an expert, but operations were funded by fares, while expansion was funded primarily by speculative real estate investment. At some point, the entire system fell apart, or some would say it was systematically dismantled.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 25th, 2018, 12:12 pm

I'm not an expert, but operations were funded by fares, while expansion was funded primarily by speculative real estate investment. At some point, the entire system fell apart, or some would say it was systematically dismantled.
Some versions of the death of the streetcar stories point to contracts mandating five cent fares that eventually bankrupted operators as the culprit.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby DanPatchToget » June 25th, 2018, 3:44 pm

BoredAgain wrote:
June 25th, 2018, 11:45 am
Just so we're on the same page, transit (at least around here) used to be privately owned and operated, thought they made liberal use of the public ROW. I'm not an expert, but operations were funded by fares, while expansion was funded primarily by speculative real estate investment. At some point, the entire system fell apart, or some would say it was systematically dismantled.
From what I've read the streetcar operations in the Twin Cities never made a profit off passenger fares. The companies were making money off real estate along streetcar routes. In a way they were doing transit oriented development before the term was used.

The cities wanted cheap fares, but at the same time forced the streetcar companies to pay for their own maintenance and operations. TCRT wasn't being helped financially by any city despite not making any money.

When it comes to something like Brightline in Florida I'm okay with it because most of the ROW is also used by freight trains, and if it doesn't work out as a private operation it looks pretty easy for the state or municipalities to take over. Elon's O'Hare Express has a lot of promises that I'm skeptical can be met, and there are numerous other options that are proven to work.

StoJa9
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby StoJa9 » July 25th, 2018, 10:24 pm

How many "lids" are there in the metro? I can think of 3 - Highway 5 by Fort Snelling, Minnehaha and Highway 55, there's an exit ramp in St Paul that goe under the history center.

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niaxilin
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Re: Tunnels!

Postby niaxilin » July 25th, 2018, 10:36 pm

Is the I-94 Lowry Hill Tunnel a "lid"?


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