D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

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BoredAgain
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby BoredAgain » July 8th, 2018, 9:15 am

But if you only build transit in to areas of poor and less privileged people, you continue the myth that transit is only for poor people. Transit users continue to be the "other" for people with more power and it continues to be marginalized.

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Nathan
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby Nathan » July 8th, 2018, 10:03 am

BoredAgain wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 9:15 am
But if you only build transit in to areas of poor and less privileged people, you continue the myth that transit is only for poor people. Transit users continue to be the "other" for people with more power and it continues to be marginalized.
Ok then just build it for people who won't use it. get small ridership numbers. That's a good use of money. We're also specifically discussing a line that does just that, has very high ridership and serves marginalised communities. I'm making any argument for the benefit of serving a "low density" neighborhood by purporting that the density of ridership can still be high. Also not everyone who doesn't have a car or is heading to university or whatever they're using transit for is "poor" they just have more need.

BoredAgain
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby BoredAgain » July 8th, 2018, 4:04 pm

Nathan wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 10:03 am
BoredAgain wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 9:15 am
But if you only build transit in to areas of poor and less privileged people, you continue the myth that transit is only for poor people. Transit users continue to be the "other" for people with more power and it continues to be marginalized.
Ok then just build it for people who won't use it. get small ridership numbers. That's a good use of money. We're also specifically discussing a line that does just that, has very high ridership and serves marginalised communities. I'm making any argument for the benefit of serving a "low density" neighborhood by purporting that the density of ridership can still be high. Also not everyone who doesn't have a car or is heading to university or whatever they're using transit for is "poor" they just have more need.
I didn't explain myself well. I definitely agree that this is one of the strongest corridors in our region for major transit investment. The D Line is the proposal because there isn't space for at-grade rail and we don't have the political will to put in a subway. I blame lack of money on lack of political will. We don't even have the political will to pay for the D line. I am also not sure that this is "THE BEST" corridor for subway investment. I don't know what route would be best, but I do know that people will disagree about it. I firmly believe that any investment at that scale should prioritize a route with strong existing ridership first and strong potential ridership second. We seem to strongly prefer long-term growth potential instead of existing markets with our current high-value transit build-out plan, partially because land is cheaper. The existing route 5 corridor should have definitely gotten investment before the planned SWLRT route in my opinion, which is the poster child for your "build for people who won't use it. get small ridership numbers" at least as far as Minneapolis is concerned. I know that it was partially justified by the "it serves North Minneapolis" argument, but personally I think that argument is detached from the reality of the routing.

What I want to avoid is having people in power think of transit as only for poor people. Historically dis-invested communities deserve new and increased investment today, but any major investment needs to consider many factors and major transit investment is not the only option available.

If you want to argue with MNdible that some areas of medium to low density along the line are not the end of the world, I would point out that Subways serve nodes and not corridors. The D-Line bus will stop frequently and serve the medium density well. A Subway would have much wider stop spacing at strategic locations that will supply the demand necessary to justify the investment. There is no reason that this hypothetical subway line needs to follow the existing street grid. Stations are traditionally the most expensive part of grade separated rail and can justifiably be more widely spaced. Also, existing lower density land use doesn't need to stay that way in perpetuity, no matter what some people may want.

Tcmetro
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby Tcmetro » July 8th, 2018, 4:42 pm

There is no good corridor for a subway line in Minneapolis or St Paul. The density/land use intensity is too low generally and newer development is being channelled to industrial redevelopments.

I think the best concept going forward would be BRT/"real" Streetcars with downtown priority (not Nicollet Mall style - more like Marquette and 2nd). Eventually a downtown tunnel will make sense, which would be more in the style of how German cities approach transit improvements.

The most difficult thing about the D Line/#5 is that ridership drops significantly south of ~38th St. The north end of the line in Brooklyn Center has low redevelopment potential and a lot of the ridership up there is accessing the big box stores (Cub, Walmart) or transferring on deeper into Brooklyn Park (a market which will be largely shifted to the Bottineau Blue Line extension).

Bakken2016
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » July 9th, 2018, 11:52 am

If you live in Hennepin County District 4,

Angela Conley is running against Peter Mclaughlin, and actively supports Hennepin county funding the gap for D Line. I would vote for her over Peter if you live there, she will be a strong supporter of both LRT and a more robust bus system.

NickP
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby NickP » July 9th, 2018, 12:55 pm

I posted this in the politics forum as well. Happy Monday!
Since I didn't know much about my commissioner and district, I wanted to include a link to "find your commissioner" http://www16.co.hennepin.mn.us/commissioner/
and a current map of the Hennepin country districts Image


I hope I did all this ok. Mods, please correct if I broke any rules. :)

Silophant
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby Silophant » July 9th, 2018, 1:29 pm

Mind-blowing that a relatively cheap project that passes through 5 of the 7 districts can't even get looked at.

David Greene
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby David Greene » July 10th, 2018, 8:41 am

There a logic to it, though. If the city and county backfill transit, that's one less reason the legislature has to fund it. It's not like the cities and counties are going to get more state aid.

Remember that way back when CTIB was just a bill, the original ask was for a half cent regional sales tax to fund the Met Council's transit plan. We got half that and now we have one country trying to find the majority of that plan. The legislature needs to be hammered for underfunding transit.

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mattaudio
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby mattaudio » July 10th, 2018, 8:45 am

Maybe the legislature should get out of the business of funding *urban transit AND *rural county roads

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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby Silophant » July 10th, 2018, 9:22 am

The "don't have cities fund transit so the state feels like they have to" gambit clearly doesn't work. Time to try something else.

tmart
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby tmart » July 10th, 2018, 10:18 am

Unfortunately the city has limited, enumerated opportunities to generate revenue while the state has pretty much carte blanche. More transit money doesn't flow into the county coffers without the state passing laws.

Whether or not this is the right way to do things is another discussion, but I don't see the D Line being the catalyst for devolving taxation powers to the county level.

MNdible
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby MNdible » July 10th, 2018, 11:03 am

Tmart, please don't take away this well worn chestnut. It's a forum favorite!

mattaudio
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby mattaudio » July 10th, 2018, 11:46 am

Two things that seem to contradict the "cities and counties are helpless without the state" narrative:
- Hennepin County recently started collecting an additional 0.005% sales tax that can be used for transit.
- Hennepin County recently started collecting a $20/car/year wheelage tax that can be used for transit.
- Minneapolis just raised their levy to cover over $20 MILLION per year for streets under the Parks and Streets deal.

It's almost like we need to consider our modal priority framework when we are planning for full reconstruction of streets in Minneapolis. There's not much different expense for general purpose lanes vs dedicated bus lanes. And the County can and should help fund station amenities and/or buses for new service.

tmart
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby tmart » July 10th, 2018, 12:48 pm

mattaudio wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 11:46 am
Two things that seem to contradict the "cities and counties are helpless without the state" narrative:
- Hennepin County recently started collecting an additional 0.005% sales tax that can be used for transit.
- Hennepin County recently started collecting a $20/car/year wheelage tax that can be used for transit.
- Minneapolis just raised their levy to cover over $20 MILLION per year for streets under the Parks and Streets deal.
The first one is a reference to dissolving CTIB, correct? Because the state law gave them the option of having .25% go to CTIB or .5% to their coffers, but AFAIK they don't have any right to raise transit sales taxes beyond that.

The second one is great but again is just exercising an option the state gave them.

Property tax levies are definitely the most flexible tool they have available to them for revenue, but they have their limits as well. The revenue from sales and income taxes are orders of magnitude higher and a lot of the highest-impact projects will still need to tap into that.
It's almost like we need to consider our modal priority framework when we are planning for full reconstruction of streets in Minneapolis. There's not much different expense for general purpose lanes vs dedicated bus lanes. And the County can and should help fund station amenities and/or buses for new service.
Agreed. Notwithstanding all my talk above about revenue, there are other policy moves the city and county can make. It's been super frustrating to see the planning process for reconstructions, first on Nicollet and now again on Hennepin, go by with basically no heed paid to transit whatsoever. I also think, and intend to comment, that the 2040 plan should take much stronger and more specific stances on transit. I think it's a huge mistake not to identify specific modes and corridors, because it neuters the city's ability to advocate for these things when consulted by the Met Council and MnDOT. The only thing resembling a real strong stance is the explicit preference against freeway expansion and in favor of MnPass conversions.

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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby Silophant » July 20th, 2018, 3:37 pm

The final station plan is up for approval by the Met Council next week. No changes from the previous recommended station plan, so 48th and Chicago survived.

10MB PDF

amiller92
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby amiller92 » August 28th, 2018, 9:39 am

So there's going to be a meeting for people (i.e., the owner of Turtle Bread) to complain about the stop at 48th and Chicago:

Thursday, Sept. 13
4:30 p.m. to 7 p.m.
St. Joan of Arc Church
4537 3rd Ave S

4:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.: Open house – view the proposed station and connect with Metro Transit staff
5:30 p.m. to 5:45 p.m.: Presentation – FAQs and information
5:45 p.m. to 7 p.m.: Public comment – offer your input on the station

Metro Transit describes the opposition as including "concerns about parking impacts and quality of life considerations' and "perceptions of security issues and nuisances from bus riders," which is pretty gross.

Please consider attending the meeting and/or check out read and comments here: https://www.metrotransit.org/chicago-and-48th

Multimodal
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby Multimodal » August 28th, 2018, 11:54 am

amiller92 wrote:"perceptions of security issues and nuisances from bus riders," which is pretty gross.
I like how they called it *perceptions* of issues.

amiller92
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby amiller92 » August 28th, 2018, 12:41 pm

Metro Transit wrote that pretty carefully, yeah.

DanPatchToget
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby DanPatchToget » August 28th, 2018, 1:59 pm

"Quality of life considerations..." Over a flipping bus stop. Please tell me they're just required to do this meeting and they'll build it anyway.

Its a bus stop. Its not like they're putting in an entire transit hub.

I would be more than pleased to have this in front of my home or business. Do people still not understand that transit users (including me) are average Joes going from point A to point B? Maybe making a quick stop at point C to support a business?

And I don't care about parking. We have enough of it. What we don't have enough of is high frequency and reliable bus routes.

alexschief
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Re: D Line - Chicago-Fremont/Emerson Rapid Bus

Postby alexschief » August 28th, 2018, 2:20 pm

The D-Line will be frequent and fast, but I'm not sure it's frequent and fast enough to act as a getaway vehicle after committing crimes.


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