Labeling the Transit System

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tmart
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby tmart » November 17th, 2017, 7:39 pm

Tiller wrote:
November 17th, 2017, 4:39 pm
The highway BRT study didn't assume dedicated guideway, so by that measure it wouldn't be METRO. Perhaps they'd be regular routes like the 535(?) bus on 35W, using shoulder lanes/transit advantage for the limited distance they're available on any given route.
As a side note, but still very much on the topic of labeling the transit system, I think Metro Transit's willingness to throw the term "BRT" around for any bus where you pay before you board is really shooting themselves in the foot, both in terms of labeling problems like we're describing, but also if they ever want to build something to actual BRT standards, with LRT-level dedicated guideways, platforms, etc. It would be almost impossible to justify that kind of capital (monetary and political) against public expectations of slightly-less-lousy standard bus service.

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Tiller
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby Tiller » November 18th, 2017, 5:56 am

tmart wrote:
November 17th, 2017, 7:39 pm
if they ever want to build something to actual BRT standards, with LRT-level dedicated guideways, platforms, etc. It would be almost impossible to justify that kind of capital (monetary and political) against public expectations of slightly-less-lousy standard bus service.
Well, both the Gold and Purple lines (Gateway and Rush Lines) are going to be BRT with dedicated guideways and everything.

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby gopherfan » November 26th, 2018, 1:10 pm

On tonight's Transportation Committee agenda they will hopefully be answering this question once and for all. See the map below. Essentially aBRT will be branded as part of the METRO family, ie. METRO A Line, METRO B Line, etc. and all other forms of rapid transit will be METRO Color. So LRT, BRT, Streetcar will all get colors. There's also a new slogan "Fast. Frequent. All Day. All Yours."

Image

DanPatchToget
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby DanPatchToget » November 26th, 2018, 2:28 pm

Please don't tell me they're actually going to call it the Metro Rush Line and Metro Riverview Line.

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby Silophant » November 26th, 2018, 2:38 pm

I'm sure they won't be, they just haven't officially assigned colors to those two yet. The Rush Line may very well stay Purple, but I'd be surprised if we ever wind up with a Black Line here in one of the most racially disparate metros in the nation.

Also, y'know, yank the Red Line color from that crappy five-stop suburban route and call it the pink line or something, then the core iron triangle can be Blue, Green, and Red.

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby DanPatchToget » November 26th, 2018, 3:27 pm

Silophant wrote:
November 26th, 2018, 2:38 pm
I'm sure they won't be, they just haven't officially assigned colors to those two yet. The Rush Line may very well stay Purple, but I'd be surprised if we ever wind up with a Black Line here in one of the most racially disparate metros in the nation.

Also, y'know, yank the Red Line color from that crappy five-stop suburban route and call it the pink line or something, then the core iron triangle can be Blue, Green, and Red.
I think we would assign a Yellow Line before we even think about having a Black Line, and this is despite there being possible confusion with the Gold Line. But there are plenty of colors besides the basic ones so we shouldn't have issues.

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby Multimodal » November 26th, 2018, 4:08 pm

So 50 fantasy years from now, when cars are a thing of the distant past and everyone is taking transit, bikes, or walking, and the aBRT lines get upgraded to streetcars or light rail, will they be renamed to colors, or will we end up with a legacy of colors and letters and people are like “WTF did they do that for?”?

Also, will straight men remember/recognize any colors other than red, blue, green, yellow/gold, orange, & purple? “Let’s see, I’ve got to take the Magenta line and transfer to the Chartreuse Line…”

Also, with the current penchant for shades of gray (cars, houses, interior decorating), will we get the Cirrus Line, the Gunmetal Line, and the Stone Line?

How strict will they be with the concept of “color”? Will we get a Rainbow Line? How about a Stars & Stripes Line?

Yes, tongue firmly in cheek.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby DanPatchToget » November 26th, 2018, 4:19 pm

If an ABRT route gets upgraded to streetcar or LRT (or a hybrid of the two) I would think it would be renamed a color. The Blue Line used to be the Hiawatha Line/Route 55, and as far as I know there wasn't any confusion with the name change, though it was just one route.

We could also name them after different stones if we've gone beyond very specific colors like lime, teal, and magenta:
Lapis Line
Ruby Line
Emerald Line
etc.

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby Mikey » November 26th, 2018, 6:02 pm

How about giving hBRT lines metallic colors and LRT lines primary colors? Rename the Orange line to Silver, and Red to, umm, copper?

For colors, how about teal, maroon, purple, yellow to go with blue, green, red and orange

I have no issues with the mix of colors and letters - colors could represent limited stop services (1/2 mile stop spacing outside of downtowns), and letters are for 1/4 ish mile stop spacing
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tmart
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby tmart » November 27th, 2018, 12:59 pm

DanPatchToget wrote:
November 26th, 2018, 3:27 pm
Silophant wrote:
November 26th, 2018, 2:38 pm
I'm sure they won't be, they just haven't officially assigned colors to those two yet. The Rush Line may very well stay Purple, but I'd be surprised if we ever wind up with a Black Line here in one of the most racially disparate metros in the nation.

Also, y'know, yank the Red Line color from that crappy five-stop suburban route and call it the pink line or something, then the core iron triangle can be Blue, Green, and Red.
I think we would assign a Yellow Line before we even think about having a Black Line, and this is despite there being possible confusion with the Gold Line. But there are plenty of colors besides the basic ones so we shouldn't have issues.
I believe Gold is pretty commonly used instead of Yellow in an attempt to avoid any racial connotations (IIRC someone ended up with egg on their face when they had a Yellow Line to Chinatown). I wouldn't expect Yellow given that Gold is already on the board.
DanPatchToget wrote: If an ABRT route gets upgraded to streetcar or LRT (or a hybrid of the two) I would think it would be renamed a color. The Blue Line used to be the Hiawatha Line/Route 55, and as far as I know there wasn't any confusion with the name change, though it was just one route.

We could also name them after different stones if we've gone beyond very specific colors like lime, teal, and magenta:
Lapis Line
Ruby Line
Emerald Line
etc.
In the glorious future where we have more than ~8 easily-distinguished colors, I think we'd rename them using letters or destinations, but keep them color-coded as a secondary identifier. That is to say, the Blue Line might become the H Line, or the Mall of America train southbound and the Target Field train northbound, but would always be colored in blue on the maps and signs.

The latter is what BART, for example, does.

Image

The "red" line on BART is always shown in red on the map, but if you're at Embarcadero and a northbound "red" train comes through, it's announced and shown on the displays as "Richmond-bound."

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby mattaudio » November 27th, 2018, 1:24 pm

Can't wait until Northstar is the brand of all-day regional service on modern DMUs. Anyone want to photoshop a Northstar livery onto a DMU?

tmart
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby tmart » November 27th, 2018, 1:38 pm

Yeah, Northstar is too good of a brand to be used on just one line, plus if we ever get serious about commuter rail, it's gonna be really confusing if we give all the lines cutesy names (Northstar, Northern Lights, Dan Patch, etc.) instead of just naming them after their destinations.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby DanPatchToget » November 27th, 2018, 3:23 pm

For commuter rail I say make it simple and have a route letter and number. So for example L1 would be a local train to Big Lake, and R11 would be a regional train to St. Cloud. They can still have individual names, but its not like people will normally call them by their name. As a whole I think the brand should have a different name other than Northstar since its associated with just the commuter train to Big Lake. MN Regional? Minnesota Regional Railways? Minnesota Railways? TC Regional Railway?

Intercity rail can stick with individual names and a train number (for example westbound Empire Builder is 7/27 and eastbound Empire Builder is 8/28).

gopherfan
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby gopherfan » November 27th, 2018, 6:59 pm

mattaudio wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 1:24 pm
Can't wait until Northstar is the brand of all-day regional service on modern DMUs. Anyone want to photoshop a Northstar livery onto a DMU?
I have to take you up on this! See Fantasy Map Thread...

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby Multimodal » November 27th, 2018, 7:21 pm

tmart wrote:The "red" line on BART is always shown in red on the map, but if you're at Embarcadero and a northbound "red" train comes through, it's announced and shown on the displays as "Richmond-bound."
That makes me think of Green Line Extension vs SWLRT (which even has its own web site). Once built, will it still be called the Extension, or will the whole thing just be called the Green Line?

Re: Names vs Numbers: Funny that I call it Hwy 62, but most locals call it The Crosstown.

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby Tcmetro » November 27th, 2018, 8:05 pm

I would imagine the whole thing will be called the Green Line. The Green Line as we know it was referred to as the "Central Corridor" during the planning phase.

The Blue Line extension was initially known as the Northwest Corridor and was changed to Bottineau Corridor when Hennepin County renamed CR 81.

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby twincitizen » December 19th, 2018, 8:53 am

The ideal rebranding of the Red Line would be "Blue Line Link", similar to the current Northstar Link bus. Because that's what it is...a bus extension of the Blue Line. Doing so would also shut y'all up from the tiresome argument that the Red Line should go downtown, etc. No, it's just a bus extension of the Blue Line...that's all it is, and all it was ever intended to be.

Met Council/CTIB made the mistake of giving the line its own primary color (the best one IMO) rather than branding it more accurately from day one. Taking back 'Red' from Dakota County is going to be a fight. Maybe Peter McLaughlin can take that on as a retirement project...he always loved throwing money at Dakota County. Hindsight being 20/20, the CTIB breakup payout to Dakota probably should have included a sunset on their use of "Red Line" by 2030

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby DanPatchToget » December 19th, 2018, 9:29 am

twincitizen wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:53 am
The ideal rebranding of the Red Line would be "Blue Line Link", similar to the current Northstar Link bus. Because that's what it is...a bus extension of the Blue Line. Doing so would also shut y'all up from the tiresome argument that the Red Line should go downtown, etc. No, it's just a bus extension of the Blue Line...that's all it is, and all it was ever intended to be.

Met Council/CTIB made the mistake of giving the line its own primary color (the best one IMO) rather than branding it more accurately from day one. Taking back 'Red' from Dakota County is going to be a fight. Maybe Peter McLaughlin can take that on as a retirement project...he always loved throwing money at Dakota County. Hindsight being 20/20, the CTIB breakup payout to Dakota probably should have included a sunset on their use of "Red Line" by 2030
Pretty rude to tell people to shut up. I expect better especially from a moderator.

You know what I think is tiresome? People constantly saying we need to change the name of the Red Line. What's the big deal about the color red already being taken? There are plenty of other colors.

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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby Tcmetro » December 19th, 2018, 9:44 am

I have to second Dan Patch's sentiment on the issue. Most people (outside of this forum) could care less that a relatively unimportant line has the color Red.

tmart
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Re: Labeling the Transit System

Postby tmart » December 19th, 2018, 10:51 am

twincitizen wrote:
December 19th, 2018, 8:53 am
The ideal rebranding of the Red Line would be "Blue Line Link", similar to the current Northstar Link bus. Because that's what it is...a bus extension of the Blue Line. Doing so would also shut y'all up from the tiresome argument that the Red Line should go downtown, etc. No, it's just a bus extension of the Blue Line...that's all it is, and all it was ever intended to be.
Conceptually this kinda sorta makes sense today, although it would sort of imply they're timed/coordinated for transfers when AFAIK they aren't. But it does better reflect Metro Transit's vision for how the line would be used and maybe manages expectations a bit better.

On the flipside, we have fairly concrete future plans for other connecting rapid service at the MOA intermodal station, like Riverview and American Boulevard aBRT, so the concept will kinda break down as the Red becomes a connector for several different higher-value lines.


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