E Line Arterial BRT

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Tcmetro
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E Line Arterial BRT

Postby Tcmetro » October 28th, 2018, 11:48 am

Upcoming E Line meetings:

https://www.metrotransit.org/e-line-engagement

Upcoming Events
The E Line project team will be hosting open houses in December:

Open House (no formal presentation, come anytime!) 4:30 PM – 6:30 PM

Pershing Recreation Center, 3523 West 48th Street, Minneapolis: Monday, December 10
Marcy Open School, Multipurpose Room, 415 4th Avenue SE, Minneapolis: Thursday, December 13

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Silophant » October 28th, 2018, 6:29 pm

Looks like they're serious about having the E Line run the entire route of the 6, then, instead of the truncated Uptown-Downtown section. Good!

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Re: Arterial Bus Rapid Transit Corridors

Postby Qhaberl » October 29th, 2018, 9:44 am

That would be awesome! Here is my question, they just redid Hennepin Avenue from 31st St. to36 street. Wouldn’t that have been the perfect time to put in the infrastructure for the bus rapid transit stations?

I was really hoping that this would be the case. I mean that the E line would be extended all the way down to Southdale and up to the university.


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E Line ABRT

Postby Qhaberl » October 29th, 2018, 9:50 am

Searched the forms and did not find a topic for this. Decided to create one.


Currently, the E Line is planned to run alone Hennepin Avenue from downtown Minneapolis to uptown transit Station. There has been some speculation about Metro Transit possibly extending the E line to cover the entire route six.

Metro transit is beginning the community engagement process.

(Opinion) I really hope that the E line runs the entire route of the six. From Southdale all the way through the University of Minnesota. My concern is that with all of the traffic on Hennepin Avenue downtown, you would see a lot of bus bus bunching.




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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby COLSLAW5 » October 29th, 2018, 10:11 am

I think with all the new housing going up along University Ave. like the General Mills site as well as connecting the housing over there to the U of M with a hopefully more than only one bus every hour they really should extend it to cover the whole route of the 6. It would allow for more options for people to live not next to campus as the housing prices there keep going up.

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Korh » October 29th, 2018, 10:35 am

One question concerning extending the E line to southdale. Would it be better to run it on France, Xerxes, or a mix of both also do we leave out some stops on the 6 like the stops on wooddale and the stops south of southdale?

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Qhaberl » October 29th, 2018, 11:11 am

Anyone have any information on how many people get on south of Southdale? Do all of the branches extend south of Southdale Center? I know for sure is that for 6K does, because my fiancé takes that to work in the morning.


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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Bakken2016 » October 29th, 2018, 11:15 am

Qhaberl wrote:
October 29th, 2018, 11:11 am
Anyone have any information on how many people get on south of Southdale? Do all of the branches extend south of Southdale Center? I know for sure is that for 6K does, because my fiancé takes that to work in the morning.


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South of Southdale 6 service is only hourly.

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby DanPatchToget » October 29th, 2018, 11:22 am

Not having the E Line on the entire Route 6 between Southdale and Stadium Village would be a huge mistake. That would be like the D Line only operating between downtown and Chicago & Lake.

In addition to whether it operates on France or Xerxes I also wonder:
-If its routed on France does it take a straight shot to Excelsior Blvd and then turn east to Uptown, or stick with the existing route?
-What happens to the Wooddale branch?
-What happens to the branches south of Southdale? Do all Route 6 buses keep going south to Minnesota Drive & France, and should E Line buses do the same?

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby alexschief » October 29th, 2018, 1:03 pm

DanPatchToget wrote:
October 29th, 2018, 11:22 am
Not having the E Line on the entire Route 6 between Southdale and Stadium Village would be a huge mistake. That would be like the D Line only operating between downtown and Chicago & Lake.

In addition to whether it operates on France or Xerxes I also wonder:
-If its routed on France does it take a straight shot to Excelsior Blvd and then turn east to Uptown, or stick with the existing route?
-What happens to the Wooddale branch?
-What happens to the branches south of Southdale? Do all Route 6 buses keep going south to Minnesota Drive & France, and should E Line buses do the same?
I have a really hard time believing that the E-Line will do anything but hit the West Lake Station. So I expect the route would be France-Excelsior-Lake. The branch routes would probably be served by zombie #6 service, like the current zombie #84 bus does some twists and turns in Highland that were not replaced by the A-Line.

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby kellonathan » October 29th, 2018, 1:36 pm

My speculation is also on the France-Excelsior-Lake routing. With the E Line serving France with a high-frequency service, #6 can be truncated to become a "shuttle" btwn Uptown TC and Southdale via Xerxes. (maybe extend to downtown during peak hours, depending on service hour availability) Shorter route length can facilitate higher frequency on Xerxes, compensating for not getting the aBRT through Linden Hills and E-Line/SWLRT related transfer penalty.
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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Bakken2016 » October 29th, 2018, 2:00 pm

kellonathan wrote:
October 29th, 2018, 1:36 pm
My speculation is also on the France-Excelsior-Lake routing. With the E Line serving France with a high-frequency service, #6 can be truncated to become a "shuttle" btwn Uptown TC and Southdale via Xerxes. (maybe extend to downtown during peak hours, depending on service hour availability) Shorter route length can facilitate higher frequency on Xerxes, compensating for not getting the aBRT through Linden Hills and E-Line/SWLRT related transfer penalty.
I don't think that will be the case since the B Line will be serving the West Lake Station.

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Qhaberl » October 29th, 2018, 2:34 pm

Just a thought: if they do do the France to Excelsior, they could keep a connection to W. Lake St. station. You would have to walk about .3 miles.

Keep a stop[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201810 ... 5a8cfb.jpg[/IMG] at Excelsior and Calhoun Commons.



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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby mattaudio » October 29th, 2018, 2:37 pm

Or extend the 21 to Southdale via Linden Hills. Just think a one seat ride from Southdale to DT St. Paul... it would only take two hours!

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby kellonathan » October 29th, 2018, 2:40 pm

That's true. That being said, *if the stars align*, and when we have both SWLRT and Midtown Greenway Rail converging at the station, I believe it makes more sense to have both B and E lines serve the station.

I guess, eventually, it all comes down to cost-and-benefit balance for serving SWLRT-originating trips to connect at West Lake to E Line for those who're headed to destinations on France Ave and in Edina, or transfer to B Line (or other local services, i.e. #17) and having them transfer again at Uptown TC.
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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Multimodal » October 29th, 2018, 6:08 pm

Why would the E Line go to Excelsior, east of France, if SWLRT is so close to it there, and the 17 goes along Excelsior? I think keeping it along 39th—which has no other bus routes (and will soon sport triplexes along its length ;)) makes the most sense.

I agree with those saying France makes more sense than Xerxes.

I like the E Line following the old streetcar line down to 54th on France. But south of there, there’s nothing but single family homes until 62nd, where duplexes start (old duplexes at that, which might make sense to increase density at some point). So it makes sense to head west to Wooddale at 54th. I think an argument could be make about whether it makes sense to go back to France on 65th (as it does today) or 62nd (so it hits the duplexes on France between 62nd & Hwy 62).

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Tcmetro » October 29th, 2018, 10:39 pm

Bakken2016 wrote:
October 29th, 2018, 11:15 am
Qhaberl wrote:
October 29th, 2018, 11:11 am
Anyone have any information on how many people get on south of Southdale? Do all of the branches extend south of Southdale Center? I know for sure is that for 6K does, because my fiancé takes that to work in the morning.


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South of Southdale 6 service is only hourly.
Service from Southdale to Minnesota Drive is every 20-30 minutes and serves about 300 riders per day. I think this warrants aBRT service because most of the area is apartment and office buildings.

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As for Xerxes vs France/Wooddale, Xerxes has higher ridership. There are ~600 boardings on the Xerxes branch, with about 150-200 of those from Southwest High School.

France has about 300-400 boardings per day. The Wooddale branch is only about 20 boardings, as is the France segment between 54th and 65th.

The Southdale stop has ~380 northbound boardings and ~60 southbound boardings and basically is as efficient as either the France or Xerxes branch.

Xerxes has good ridership at 60th, 56th, 50th, 47th (SWHS), and 43rd which would be good candidates for aBRT stops.

Along France the best ridership stops would be Southdale Hospital, 50th, 47th (SWHS), Sunnyside, and 39th.

Ridership on Hennepin between 36th and Loring Park is about 1700 northbound and 1000 southbound, and is the definite core area of Route 6.

The University branch has another ~1000 riders each way and I think is a no-brainer to include in the E Line.

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Overall, I think it's best to run the E Line from Stadium Village to Minnesota Drive. I don't think it matters if Xerxes or France becomes the aBRT branch, but I think Xerxes is a better fit. The local 6 overlay might fit France better because there aren't any logical aBRT stops between 50th and Southdale Hospital, and because there is the Wooddale sub-branch.

I'm not really a fan of the France to Excelsior/Lake routing. Traffic there is pretty bad at rush hour, and the 12/612, 17, and future B Line serve that area as well as the future Green Line/Southwest extension. I also don't think that the market between the Green Line and Southdale area will be strong enough to justify a realignment that would result in lost service to Hennepin south of Lake and Linden Hills.

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Multimodal » October 30th, 2018, 6:05 am

Thanks for the great data & analysis, Tcmetro.

However, I think there are a few other things to consider:

1. SWLRT wraps around but does not touch Edina. If the E Line goes along Xerxes, Edina will be a major first-ring suburb without any significant transit going into it (it’ll be going along its edge and a couple stops near Southdale), while even second-ring suburbs (Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, Brooklyn Park, Bloomington, Woodbury) will have transit by then.

2. Just as most of Canada’s population is within 100 miles of its southern border, while the US’s population within 100 miles of its norther border is a tiny fraction of the country, Edina is by far most dense along its eastern border while Mpls’ western border is among the least dense areas of the city. I think we as a society want to encourage density & transit in our suburbs where we can.

3. Looking at current & future trends, a France Ave. routing is only going to get denser: apartments and other multifamily housing is under construction or has been approved for construction at Sunnyside/44th & France, 50th & France (and just west at Grandview), Wooddale & Valley View, and of course the many huge projects in the Southdale area (becoming the Twin Cities’ “third downtown”). It’s people in multifamily housing who will most likely be “car-light” or car-free and need transit.

4. I do think the Wooddale & Valley View route is perhaps the weakest link, and if it adds significant time to the route for a limited ridership, then it could be dispensed with (not that a France routing from 62nd to 54th Streets is any denser, just more direct).

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Multimodal » October 30th, 2018, 6:20 am

And, of course, the perfect mnemonic for the E Line is Erudition (U of M) to Edina.

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Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Multimodal » October 30th, 2018, 10:11 am

Thinking more generally about the E Line and development in the Southdale area…

Does it make sense to continue the Southdale Transit Center where it is? If the Southdale block continues to be a mall in the center flanked by a single dense-ish apartment building and dense-ish hotel, is that convenient for most people in the area? Especially if Southdale doesn’t implement the sub-blocks (woonerfs) that the Southdale Area Plan is looking to create?

If the dense housing & hotels are further south (Guitar Center, 7200/7250 France, The Westin Galleria, etc.), why not put the Transit Center somewhere along the Promenade?


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