E Line Arterial BRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
User avatar
Anondson
Capella Tower
Posts: 3972
Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Anondson » October 30th, 2018, 11:20 am

Multimodal wrote:And, of course, the perfect mnemonic for the E Line is Erudition (U of M) to Edina.
East Bank to Edina...

Multimodal
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 660
Joined: March 4th, 2016, 7:55 am
Location: Oh, no, the burbs!

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Multimodal » October 30th, 2018, 2:24 pm

Anondson wrote:
Multimodal wrote:And, of course, the perfect mnemonic for the E Line is Erudition (U of M) to Edina.
East Bank to Edina...
Oh, much better!

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1346
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Tcmetro » November 27th, 2018, 8:17 pm

Metro Transit has launched an E Line survey.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/E_Line_Corridor_Study

There are three options for the north end of the route:
  • 1: End at Washington and Hennepin
  • 2: End at Stadium Village Green Line
  • 3: End at Westgate Green Line
There are six options for the south end of the line:
  • 1: via Hennepin, 36th, Calhoun/39th, Sheridan, 44th, and France to end at 44th/France or 50th/France
  • 2: via Hennepin, 36th, Calhoun/39th, Sheridan, 44th, Xerxes, and 50th to end at 50th/France
  • 3: via Hennepin, 36th, Calhoun/39th, Sheridan, 44th, and Xerxes to end at 50th/Xerxes
  • 4: via Hennepin, 36th, Calhoun/39th, Sheridan, 44th, Xerxes, 50th, and France to Southdale
  • 5: via Hennepin, 36th, Calhoun/39th, Sheridan, 44th, and France to Southdale
  • 6: via Hennepin, 36th, Calhoun/39th, Sheridan, 44th, and Xerxes to Southdale
  • 7: via Hennepin and Lake/Lagoon to the West Lake Green Line
I think that options 1, 2, and 3 are non-starters because Southdale is such a huge ridership draw for the #6 bus. Option 7 overlaps the B Line and would compete with the Green Line. Also, the #17 bus can connect the Green Line to Uptown, Lowry Hill, and Whittier with local stops.

I find 4 interesting as it hits the 50th/Xerxes node, but I think 5 or 6 will end up being the most practical.

I'm interested to see what Metro Transit is planning to do with the local #6 service. Hopefully both the E Line and the Green Line extension projects can open at the same time for a more comprehensive service restructuring.

Multimodal
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 660
Joined: March 4th, 2016, 7:55 am
Location: Oh, no, the burbs!

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Multimodal » November 27th, 2018, 10:25 pm

I like #5, as it follows the old streetcar line connecting Uptown with Linden Hills and 44th & France (and 50th & 54th). And Edina’s pushing some serious suburban density in those areas.

It doesn’t make much sense to stop at 50th, though, since there are so many jobs and future jobs & housing in our “third downtown” around Southdale.

Good point about the Green Line extension opening up about the same time as the E Line. My neighborhood will go from no rapid transit to 2 lines in the blink of an eye. Perhaps somewhat oddly, aBRT will take me to Uptown but LRT won’t.

mamundsen
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1085
Joined: November 15th, 2012, 10:01 am

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby mamundsen » November 28th, 2018, 3:40 am

With the amount of development in NE, how could they not extend this across the river?

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3769
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Silophant » November 28th, 2018, 9:29 am

I guess I might be wrong, but I'm 95% sure the northern extension will happen, with the only real question being if it ends at Stadium Village or Westgate. It's just so much bang for the buck. This is a perfect example of the benefit of locally funding projects instead of going through the federal process - like SWLRT, the original scoping study was done before a neighborhood that was close to but not quite on the route really took off, but unlike SWLRT, we didn't lock ourselves into an unchangeable route map a decade before construction started, and we can modify it to account for the last decade bet construction actually begins.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7893
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby mattaudio » November 28th, 2018, 9:38 am

Would be so cool to see transit actually return to the original Linden Hills TCRT alignment between Bde Maka Ska and 44th/France.

Also, wonder why it has not been considered to route the southern extension via Excelsior to France, which would allow a connection to the West Lake Green Line station. Wasn't SWLRT 3A predicated upon providing bus connections from urban neighborhoods to SWLRT for access to suburban jobs? Odd that was such a huge factor a decade ago when we voted on a locally preferred alignment but seems missing now that we're planning ABRT...

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1378
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby acs » November 28th, 2018, 9:39 am

Why not option 7, but after West Lake station take Excelsior over to France ave. Then it can hit all the nodes from the other options while providing more connectivity between the LRT and Uptown.

Edit: Matt beat me to it.

blo442
Block E
Posts: 10
Joined: February 19th, 2018, 12:43 pm

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby blo442 » November 28th, 2018, 10:13 am

acs wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 9:39 am
Why not option 7, but after West Lake station take Excelsior over to France ave. Then it can hit all the nodes from the other options while providing more connectivity between the LRT and Uptown.

Edit: Matt beat me to it.
I put this exact thought as a comment on the survey, but figured I was probably just missing something as a U of M student who barely ever makes it over to Southwest. Good to know other people are thinking the same.

Are there actual trip generators on the southeast side of Bde Maka Ska, or are the proposed routings just a function of inertia with the current 6 route?

Qhaberl
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 793
Joined: February 25th, 2016, 9:51 am

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Qhaberl » November 28th, 2018, 10:26 am

I see your point about extending it to the Southwest light rail station and then preceding down Excelsior to France. I take the six very frequently from 36 Street in Hennepin. Personally, I would hate to see there be no bus service on Hennepin Avenue from uptown to 36 street. Even right now, the frequency of service on Hennepin Avenue is wonderful! I frequently see people getting on the six at Hennepin in 36 St.

My guess is that if they move the sticks to no longer serve Hennepin Avenue, that stretch would be served by a feeder bus route with much lower frequency.

Another thought, how difficult would it be to install the bus rapid transit stations along Hennepin? Would we have to wait until they re-construct Hennepin Avenue in downtown and uptown? Would it be feasible to build the bus rapid transit station prior to the full reconstruction? That would give the possibility of the line opening earlier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Qhaberl
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 793
Joined: February 25th, 2016, 9:51 am

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Qhaberl » November 28th, 2018, 10:28 am

To answer your question about trip generation around the southwest part of the lake, from my experience taking the bus to Southdale frequently, I can honestly say that I don’t see many people getting on in that area.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3769
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Silophant » November 28th, 2018, 10:29 am

There's not much for defined single point trip generators (Bde Maka Ska south beach, in season?), but ECCO and SOUP are actual neighborhoods with people living in them. The golf course... isn't.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7893
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby mattaudio » November 28th, 2018, 10:39 am

Just seems like two turns for the Excelsior-France alignment is a much higher ride quality than five turns for the 36th-Richfield Rd-Sheridan/Upton-44th-France alignment. And also serves the West Lake area. Bonus would be some sort of connection to Excelsior/Grand but obviously there's no easy way to route from there to 50th/France without backtracking.

Multimodal
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 660
Joined: March 4th, 2016, 7:55 am
Location: Oh, no, the burbs!

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby Multimodal » November 28th, 2018, 11:47 am

Silophant wrote:There's not much for defined single point trip generators (Bde Maka Ska south beach, in season?), but ECCO and SOUP are actual neighborhoods with people living in them. The golf course... isn't.
Yeah, this. From Chowen to France on Excelsior, and then down to 38th, there’s no demand at all—for riders or destinations.

Meanwhile, downtown Linden Hills and all along 44th there are many destinations and apartments.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4747
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby David Greene » November 28th, 2018, 9:40 pm

Routing to West Bde Maka Ska station could kill efforts for Midtown LRT and I'm not ready to give up on that.

I have a feeling that if it followed the old TCRT ROW people would not be happy with a bus running down their alley. :)

alexschief
Union Depot
Posts: 366
Joined: November 12th, 2015, 11:35 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby alexschief » November 29th, 2018, 9:14 am

Extending the northern section to the University area is a massive no-brainer. The difference between stopping at Stadium Village and Westgate isn't big, but because students increasingly live out in the Westgate area, and because that routing would extend the E-Line past a grocery store, the Surly Brewery, and the future Malcolm Yards food hall, I'd favor that choice.

Extending the southern portion to Southdale is similarly obvious, but the route choice is much trickier. I'd previously assumed that they would go to the West Lake Station regardless, but I'm pleasantly surprised that they are not, so I retract some of my earlier comments on this subject. Hennepin south of Lake in SOUP, has pretty high ridership stops, and the retail node at 44th and Upton can't be missed. Most of the alternatives support this. The choice in my mind seems to be between Options 5 and Option 6. The France routing hits a few larger retail nodes, but Xerxes routing runs through slightly more dense and gridded neighborhoods, and has the advantage of being a more legible route. It's a close call, but given these choices, I'd support Option 6 on Xerxes, and I'd support re-configuring the Route #6 local bus to run on France from Southdale to the West Lake Station, then along Hennepin and terminating downtown.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7893
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby mattaudio » November 29th, 2018, 9:43 am

David Greene wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 9:40 pm

I have a feeling that if it followed the old TCRT ROW people would not be happy with a bus running down their alley. :)
I'd rather see LRT if that would make them happier.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6177
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby twincitizen » November 29th, 2018, 1:52 pm

Excelsior-France is not one of the options. The choices are the short route (to SWLRT West Lake Station via Lake Street as shown in the ATCS) vs. a route that mimics a Route 6 branch. Not mentioned in the E Line materials is that Metro Transit is also planning a new local route (601?) that would run on France Ave from West Lake Station to Southdale, via Excelsior and France. That route would be part of the service changes related to SWLRT, and should certainly be taken into consideration when planning where the E Line (and remaining Route 6 branches) should go.

What Alex said above, Options 5 and 6 are probably the closest thing to what the E Line will ultimately look like.
Silophant wrote:
November 28th, 2018, 9:29 am
I'm 95% sure the northern extension will happen, with the only real question being if it ends at Stadium Village or Westgate.
Agreed. I don't get the Westgate thing though. Wouldn't stop spacing for aBRT be similar to LRT? Westgate and Prospect Park Stations are not far enough apart to have an aBRT stop between them.The local 16 was recently truncated even further east (at Fairview), so bringing aBRT to Westgate would still leave a large gap from there to Fairview with no local bus service, so I doubt it's related to replacing lost 16 service. Right now I'd put my money on the E Line ending at Stadium Village, in the interests of keeping the total trip time down (fewer buses & drivers needed). The one big benefit that Westgate has is a new connection from that area to St. Anthony/CenHen, both growing like gangbusters.

Also, FYI to wokefolx, the Southwest LRT Station is named "West Lake Street", so you don't have to stress over whether it's Calhoun or Maka Ska.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5775
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby MNdible » November 29th, 2018, 2:29 pm

twincitizen wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 1:52 pm
Not mentioned in the E Line materials is that Metro Transit is also planning a new local route (601?) that would run on France Ave from West Lake Station to Southdale, via Excelsior and France. That route would be part of the service changes related to SWLRT, and should certainly be taken into consideration when planning where the E Line (and remaining Route 6 branches) should go.
But why wouldn't you just make the 601 an extension of the Option 7 routing?

As for the northern extensions, I guess that given the intensive density that's developing along that stretch of University, having a stop at 29th and Westgate probably make some sense.

tmart
Union Depot
Posts: 338
Joined: October 6th, 2017, 10:05 am
Location: Expat

Re: E Line ABRT

Postby tmart » November 29th, 2018, 2:29 pm

One thing that concerns me about some of these extensions (and that I like about the Excelsior-France alignment that sadly isn't being considered) is that it diverges from the good route design that the other aBRT routes have prioritized. Running in straight lines along small numbers of streets is one of the selling points used to distinguish aBRT as a user-friendly alternative to our labyrinthine branching local buses--not to mention, it makes them faster and more frequent. It worries me that we seem to be moving from a corridor mentality to one where we plan around hitting specific destinations.

If someone asks you where the A Line runs, you'd tell them it mostly goes along Snelling and then a bit along 46th. Easy!

The E Line could end up running down 4th/University, down Hennepin, along 36th, down Calhoun Parkway, down Sheridan, onto 44th, then Xerxes, then 50th, then down France, and finally onto 66th to do a lap around Southdale. There may be some logic to that route for a user who knows the major destinations along the line and wants to move between them, but it's dang near impossible to, say, give verbal directions on how to take it. If the goal is for users to be able to use these buses without tons of foreknowledge about their routes, then some of the E line options really don't pass that test. This route isn't compatible with the use pattern where users can move up and down an arterial road without really worrying about routes, stops, or schedules ahead of time.
twincitizen wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 1:52 pm
Wouldn't stop spacing for aBRT be similar to LRT?
I don't remember where I read this, but I thought LRT targeted roughly one-mile spacing, and aBRT targeted half-mile spacing.


Return to “Transportation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests