Green Line LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Minneapolisite

Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby Minneapolisite » July 2nd, 2014, 8:35 pm

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2014 ... rridor.php

I have to say that I disagree that the housing development is an improvement over the drive thru: blasphemy, I know. The fact of the matter is that one drive thru served as 100% more of a destination than this Episcopal Homes project which looks to take up a block and offer nothing for pedestrians. It should house about 4 businesses that face the sidewalk being that it's right next to the station, but apparently St Paul hasn't bothered to zone for that, so already you have a big lost opportunity right on the corner of this station's intersection. St Paul should have already zoned for commercial to be mandatory near these stations like they used to be or for a present day comparison look at the high density of small commercial spaces immediately around some of Chicago's stations.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby VAStationDude » July 2nd, 2014, 8:44 pm

If there's anything University avenue doesn't lack is available commercial space.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby mulad » July 3rd, 2014, 12:49 am

Even though 11 miles might not sound like much, the Green Line corridor is pretty huge. I've been looking up maps of Amsterdam quite a bit lately, and it's striking to see that there is a good deal of open space between it, a city of 800,000 people (a bit bigger than Minneapolis and St. Paul together), and nearby cities, such as Haarlem (pop. 155k). City center to city center, they're 12 miles apart. They're a lot denser than anywhere in the Twin Cities, but there isn't retail on every block. I'd do a deeper analysis of their streetcar corridors, which seem to have more concentrated retail/business activity, but Street View isn't working properly for me anymore with the new Google Maps...

Anyway, there's a ton of room, and there are many empty nearby storefronts that probably need to get filled in before we should worry about adding more retail space.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby VAStationDude » July 3rd, 2014, 6:45 am

Green Line ridership up during second week

http://blogs.mprnews.org/cities/2014/07 ... cond-week/

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby Silophant » July 3rd, 2014, 7:04 am

Ridership up 16%, despite having two fewer Twins games. That's huge.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby Snelbian » July 3rd, 2014, 7:06 am

Minneapolisite wrote:http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2014 ... rridor.php

I have to say that I disagree that the housing development is an improvement over the drive thru: blasphemy, I know. The fact of the matter is that one drive thru served as 100% more of a destination than this Episcopal Homes project which looks to take up a block and offer nothing for pedestrians. It should house about 4 businesses that face the sidewalk being that it's right next to the station, but apparently St Paul hasn't bothered to zone for that, so already you have a big lost opportunity right on the corner of this station's intersection. St Paul should have already zoned for commercial to be mandatory near these stations like they used to be or for a present day comparison look at the high density of small commercial spaces immediately around some of Chicago's stations.
The fact of the matter is that the Episcopal Homes development does, in fact, include 1 public commercial space for a sidewalk cafe or similar business at the corner. Presumably this offers something for pedestrians.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby talindsay » July 3rd, 2014, 7:36 am

Based on the station boarding percentages, all three of the "infill" stations are outperforming both Robert and prospect park, while Hamline specifically is seeing very high ridership. I was surprised to see Dale so high on the list - ahead of West Bank, for example. That does jive with my experience though -I've used Dale a couple times this week and there were others there both times, even at of peak times.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby ECtransplant » July 3rd, 2014, 9:42 am

Let's be optimists for a moment and assume the tend from this n=2 sample continues and the Green Line blows the ridership predictions out of the water. My understanding was those predictions were revised up during planning to better reflect the region's rail bias based upon our experience with Hiawatha. Significantly beating those predictions, after we raised the bar even higher, would seem like a big deal to me. What affect would that have on SWLRT and Bottineau alignments and timelines, Midtown corridor timeline, and the future of LRT in the metro more generally?

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby acs » July 3rd, 2014, 10:16 am

We'd have to revise our ridership projections for pretty much every corridor under study. Bottineau and SWLRT are already above the 20k per day threshold for LRT. SWLRT can't be expedited much more than it is since funding is already pledged and the main constraint is engineering and construction at this point (not to mention political will). If the CTIB tax is raised as a result of strong ridership then we could fund/build Bottineau concurrently with SWLRT.

Outside of those corridors, significant upward revisions in ridership projections MAY be enough to push corridors slated for BRT into the LRT category out of capacity constraints. Gateway LRT was projected at 12k ish in the last study, rush line LRT at 9k. Orange line BRT is already projected at 20k and riverview is currently under study. In essence green line success may only increase the appetite for more high-budget regional LRT transitways over highway BRT.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby LRV Op Dude » July 3rd, 2014, 10:31 am

How much is the ridership is from the bus lines that was trimmed or cut? Also, something needs to be done about the delayes due to bar signal before we lose the choice riders. I think it is great the ridership is going well.
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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby exiled_antipodean » July 3rd, 2014, 10:32 am

Snelbian wrote:
Minneapolisite wrote:http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2014 ... rridor.php

I have to say that I disagree that the housing development is an improvement over the drive thru: blasphemy, I know. The fact of the matter is that one drive thru served as 100% more of a destination than this Episcopal Homes project which looks to take up a block and offer nothing for pedestrians. It should house about 4 businesses that face the sidewalk being that it's right next to the station, but apparently St Paul hasn't bothered to zone for that, so already you have a big lost opportunity right on the corner of this station's intersection. St Paul should have already zoned for commercial to be mandatory near these stations like they used to be or for a present day comparison look at the high density of small commercial spaces immediately around some of Chicago's stations.
The fact of the matter is that the Episcopal Homes development does, in fact, include 1 public commercial space for a sidewalk cafe or similar business at the corner. Presumably this offers something for pedestrians.
And there's three other corners at the intersection with commercial space, plus parking lots and large grass setbacks that could be built on, if there's a demand for space at this station.

Commercial space is lovely, but it's like an empty parking lot if it sits empty. It doesn't do anything for the street. Better to have residential or office uses with good street frontage than mandate commercial space. We should learn something from the half-century disaster of minimum parking requirements and it is not to have minimum "things I think are desirable" requirements.

My prediction is that Raymond and Fairview stations are going to be really successful. They are close to some established neighborhoods, but there's also under-used commercial and light industrial space that can be re-purposed without as much of a re-zoning battle.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby mattaudio » July 3rd, 2014, 10:39 am

Exactly, we just need active space. Not a particular kind of space. Once our spaces fill up as active, then we will start getting the highest and best use as demand grows... possibly including a retrofit of commercial space into this parcel.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby nate » July 3rd, 2014, 11:32 am

The fact that they're hitting these ridership numbers without the U of MN, Concordia, Hamline, and the various high schools along the line in full session is incredibly promising.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby HiawathaGuy » July 3rd, 2014, 11:57 am

The ridership numbers are incredibly encouraging!

Especially when you look at how that compares to other major cities and their ridership:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... _ridership

The Blue Line averages just over 30,000 riders/day. So coupled that with equal, if not greater numbers on the Green Line, our system (just light rail), jumps from 17th highest ridership/day to 10th. That's with only 21.8 miles of track!

With both planned extensions, we could easily jump to 4th - behind Boston, San Francisco and LA (when looking solely at light rail ridership).

That's pretty amazing.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby mullen » July 3rd, 2014, 12:23 pm

people like rail. casual transit users will go out of their way to use it. they will go out of their way to avoid getting on a bus.

i wish we had doubledecker buses like some european cities. when I was london i spent a day using those instead of taking the tube. it's a pleasure to ride those, seeing the city from up top. but our run of the mill buses, which are fine, are not the experience rail offers. the transit experience is paramount.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby mulad » July 3rd, 2014, 12:23 pm

LRV Op Dude wrote:How much is the ridership is from the bus lines that was trimmed or cut? Also, something needs to be done about the delayes due to bar signal before we lose the choice riders. I think it is great the ridership is going well.
Just to set a baseline, here are what the daily ridership was of the 16, 50, and 94 back in 2010 (the year before LRT construction began):
  • 16 - 16,880
  • 50 - 6,886
  • 94 - 4,213
Total: 27,979

Your guess is as good as mine for what the remaining route 16 and 94 ridership is now. I imagine the Green Line draws a bit from other parallel routes, such as the 3, 21, and 67. Some of that will appear to add ridership as people use connecting buses and make transfers. But it's pretty clear that a lot of Green Line ridership is from new folks who wouldn't have taken the bus before.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby MinnMonkey » July 3rd, 2014, 12:23 pm

HiawathaGuy wrote:The ridership numbers are incredibly encouraging!

Especially when you look at how that compares to other major cities and their ridership:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... _ridership

The Blue Line averages just over 30,000 riders/day. So coupled that with equal, if not greater numbers on the Green Line, our system (just light rail), jumps from 17th highest ridership/day to 10th. That's with only 21.8 miles of track!

With both planned extensions, we could easily jump to 4th - behind Boston, San Francisco and LA (when looking solely at light rail ridership).

That's pretty amazing.
I know you can always manipulate statics to your favor, but looking at that list, if you break it down to Average Daily Boardings per Mile (not including streetcars), we are #4 after Boston, San Francisco and Houston with 2,982 boardings/mile.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby MinnMonkey » July 3rd, 2014, 12:25 pm

mulad wrote: But it's pretty clear that a lot of Green Line ridership is from new folks who wouldn't have taken the bus before.
Me and my wife are 2 of them (at least not riding the bus everyday).

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby HiawathaGuy » July 3rd, 2014, 12:43 pm

MinnMonkey wrote:I know you can always manipulate statics to your favor, but looking at that list, if you break it down to Average Daily Boardings per Mile (not including streetcars), we are #4 after Boston, San Francisco and Houston with 2,982 boardings/mile.
Agreed! I thought the numbers were very interesting to dig through. With more extensions of our system, it's clear we'll be an example of 'good' for the US - even with our densest neighborhoods being skirted by said extensions.

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Re: Green Line (Central Corridor LRT)

Postby EOst » July 3rd, 2014, 12:54 pm

Keep in mind those other systems aren't standing still, though--Denver, Portland, Seattle, Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix all have new ones coming down the line as well.


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