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trigonalmayhem

Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby trigonalmayhem » December 18th, 2015, 8:02 am

-1 for everybody gets a fine. I want them to be the Oprahs of transit fines--you get a fine, you get a fine, EVERYBODY GETS A FINE!

and yeah the sporting event mayhem where they shrug and say it's unenforceable needs to end. We've already given them subsidized stadiums, they can at least pay for the damn train.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby mulad » December 18th, 2015, 8:10 am

The first version I saw of this story included a graph showing arrest and citation rates by race (which was reproduced from page 8 the report itself -- the Pioneer Press included the report at the bottom of their article). As far as I can tell, none of the graphs in the report showed statistics about the first encounter with police, which is the main concern that the report pointed out.

Whenever I've had my fare checked on the train, it has felt like the police or conductors (for Northstar) have always checked everybody. But they haven't always scanned my fare card (which may or may not skew things), and I'm not sure how readily they try to read the expiration times on paper tickets. It's good that the police are now being told to consistently warn people the first time and only cite or arrest on subsequent encounters, but it's extremely disappointing that this hasn't been the policy all along.

But the police are just the front end of the whole legal process. Warnings, citations, and arrests should all include some relief valve for assistance for people who don't have the income to consistently pay. It is illegal (determined to be unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause) in this country to imprison or extend the probation of people who are unable to pay legal fines, since that is a form of debtor's prison. There are pretty rampant violations of this through many parts of the country, or at least many places getting right up to the edge of what it legal.

Anyway, I'm not sure what exists here today, but there should be entry points into a support system that at least helps people pay for their transit trips and more optimally assists them with finding work, housing, health support, etc. It's one thing to punish folks who are able to pay and decides not to. But if someone isn't able to pay $2.00 for a bus or train ride, they most likely got bigger problems that need to be dealt with.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby HiawathaGuy » December 18th, 2015, 8:40 am

trigonalmayhem wrote:-1 for everybody gets a fine. I want them to be the Oprahs of transit fines--you get a fine, you get a fine, EVERYBODY GETS A FINE!

and yeah the sporting event mayhem where they shrug and say it's unenforceable needs to end. We've already given them subsidized stadiums, they can at least pay for the damn train.
Most all of your posts are filled with so much sourness and contempt (borderline hate), it makes me wonder just how miserable your life must be. It honestly makes this site so much less fun to visit.

VAStationDude
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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby VAStationDude » December 18th, 2015, 8:56 am

I ride the blue line to about ten twins games a year. Transit police presence and fare enforcement is heavy. people leaving the stadium don't stop at ticket machines so I assume paper tickets checked by police are six hour event passes.


My experience is that tourists and whites wearing expensive clothes aren't warned or kicked off the train when they don't have a fare. Minorities and working class whites get treatment ranging from getting kicked off the train to having their name checked for warrants and getting a citation. It's very uneven.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby HiawathaGuy » December 18th, 2015, 9:10 am

VAStationDude wrote:My experience is that tourists and whites wearing expensive clothes aren't warned or kicked off the train when they don't have a fare. Minorities and working class whites get treatment ranging from getting kicked off the train to having their name checked for warrants and getting a citation. It's very uneven.
This is roughly my experience as well. I ride the train several times/week. It's always obvious to see the people who haven't paid their fare, as they typically scamper off the train quickly when the police get on. However, I will say the Transit Police have gotten better about being quick. So people don't have that luxury as much anymore.


Last night while riding the train home (MOA northbound), the police got on at Terminal 1. They quickly went through the train checking tickets/cards. I immediately thought of the article I had read in the afternoon - and thought of all the examples of disparities I've seen over the years. The police left our LRV and went to the 2nd one at Fort Snelling. There was an older couple who had gotten on at the airport, I overheard them mention it was their first time riding to the officer (I never saw him check for their tickets either). After the officers got off, the wife asked her husband, "did you buy a ticket?" To which he said, "no". I'm not quite sure why the officer didn't check for their tickets, but sadly, I immediately thought that it was a classic example of WPP (white people privileged).

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Sacrelicio
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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby Sacrelicio » December 18th, 2015, 9:19 am

FranklinAveFixation wrote:
David Greene wrote:http://www.startribune.com/study-native ... 362846081/

Ok, so maybe THIS is an example of systemic racism white Minnesota can understand.

Not holding my breath. Cue the thug-callers and poor-haters.
I had a feeling a story like this would come out eventually. I always wondered how they decided who got warnings and who got tickets.
It really irks me whenever I see them give someone a warning or just tell them to get off and buy a ticket. Why does anyone get off with a warning anyway?
I hope the solution to this is they no longer have any mercy, everyone gets a fine, especially Vikings fans.
One white guy from Woodbury or Rogers gets a ticket and the screams will start.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 18th, 2015, 9:55 am

It's tough to glean a specific number or set of numbers from this report that really give the disparity in enforcement by race. Page 12 comes the closest:

"Black adults are estimated to be 1.16 times (16 percent) more likely to be cited rather than warned when compared with white adults." If I'm reading the report correctly, this means that once an officer has engaged with a rider who did something wrong (during a fare check, or if they were being rowdy, etc), blacks are given a citation more often. But this is for *all incidents.* It's possible that for simple fare evasion citations, Metro Transit police give a warning (rather than citation/arrest) at the same rate for blacks/whites/etc (and the disparity comes only from more serious misdemeanors, which is still a problem). TO BE CLEAR, I doubt this is the case, but the data isn't detailed enough to tell us where the disparity is coming from. That there *is* a disparity for all incidents is evidence of bias.

The earlier charts showing citation/arrest rates per rider by race ignore how often riders of those categories do in fact fail to purchase a ticket (or something else), so the gap (7.96 citations per 100k black riders vs 1.64 per 100k white riders) is a little misleading. It is possible that the anecdotes about white people not even having their fare checked are true in the general sense, and this would affect the gap per rider because white evaders simply aren't caught as often to begin with. I suspect given income levels of the different races that fare evasion is actually more likely among minorities. It's here I should say that I think this 1) isn't a huge problem and 2) it's indicative of larger societal problems not some failure of any individual or race's culture.

Also. If I had to guess, I'd say that the racial gaps in enforcement for Metro Transit police are better than MPD. Okay, done bloviating.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby David Greene » December 18th, 2015, 10:13 am

The Strib article stated the opposite conclusion: fine rates for first-time fare offenders run higher for blacks and Native Americans than whites, while enforcement of more serious offenses are more even.

Your comment about larger societal issues is on point. Ideally we would have a progressive fare system or just make transit free. I don't think distance-based fares are as progressive today as they once might have been. In fact my suspicion is that they are gradually getting less progressive and may even become regressive some day.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby RailBaronYarr » December 18th, 2015, 10:34 am

David Greene wrote:The Strib article stated the opposite conclusion: fine rates for first-time fare offenders run higher for blacks and Native Americans than whites, while enforcement of more serious offenses are more even.
Yes, "serious offenses" being felonies and gross misdemeanors (that breakdown is on page 11 of the report. I was talking about the (probably meaningless) distinction between non-serious issues (including fare evasion). But you're right, the very next page in the report does talk about far evasion warning vs citation/arrest for first time offenders (not sure how they track this for people who pay with cash & have a transfer slip btw). Blacks are 1.26x more likely than whites to be fined in this case vs 1.16x for all incidents. Second time encounters were cited equally, suggesting that when prompted with fare evasion history, MTP may have a procedure to ticket or arrest they can't really ignore, but in first encounters their bias comes into play.The opening timeframe where they were instructed to give a warning to all first time offenders highlights this as well.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby fehler » December 18th, 2015, 2:59 pm

With the cost of tickets being what they are, the Vikings/Twins/Gophers can just include transit fare. Really, is it that much more?

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Nick
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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby Nick » December 18th, 2015, 6:41 pm

fehler wrote:With the cost of tickets being what they are, the Vikings/Twins/Gophers can just include transit fare. Really, is it that much more?
Not a bad idea!

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Sacrelicio
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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby Sacrelicio » December 18th, 2015, 8:37 pm

fehler wrote:With the cost of tickets being what they are, the Vikings/Twins/Gophers can just include transit fare. Really, is it that much more?
People like getting stuff for free, I bet they'd use it.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby Mikey » December 19th, 2015, 7:33 am

For a while, the Wild had a deal with Metro Transit where your game ticket got you a free ride for a couple hours before and after the game. Not LRT, but it is possible
Urbanist in the north woods

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby Silophant » December 19th, 2015, 10:18 am

I believe you could download free ride passes to any Saints game last season as well. I'd imagine the extra step cut the usage numbers, but if the Saints could do it, there's no reason the other sports couldn't.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby trigonalmayhem » December 19th, 2015, 12:26 pm

HiawathaGuy wrote:
trigonalmayhem wrote:-1 for everybody gets a fine. I want them to be the Oprahs of transit fines--you get a fine, you get a fine, EVERYBODY GETS A FINE!

and yeah the sporting event mayhem where they shrug and say it's unenforceable needs to end. We've already given them subsidized stadiums, they can at least pay for the damn train.
Most all of your posts are filled with so much sourness and contempt (borderline hate), it makes me wonder just how miserable your life must be. It honestly makes this site so much less fun to visit.
Not that your garbage ad hominem deserves a response, but my life is going pretty great, thanks! People who try to make arguments about a person and not the content of their argument make it less fun to visit too! Sorry the world isn't a peachy fun place and sometimes other people might make you face an unpleasant reality, but get over yourself. People wanting to censor the negative and criticism is exactly how we've ended up with so many festering problems around here. Everyone can't bury their heads in the sand and pat themselves on the back for the good things that have happened and expect the bad things to disappear.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby planetxan » December 20th, 2015, 2:37 am

fehler wrote:With the cost of tickets being what they are, the Vikings/Twins/Gophers can just include transit fare. Really, is it that much more?
Implant a disposable Go To chip into the tickets with a day pass good for the day of the game until 2 am (the same as a Visitor Pass). If the ticket gets used on transit it is charged, otherwise not. (i.e. the cost to the team is the aggregate of the used tickets instead of all the tickets.) The pass would only be need to be used once to register.

The chip can also be used for the turnstyles at the stadium/venue, just like the turnstyles in metros all over the world. Easy for everyone. No downloading, no printing, no guessing, no problem. (No folding your ticket, though)

I don't know what transit passes go for wholesale, but figure $4 for a pass ($4.50 Visitor, $6 Day, so a discount), about 30% of people take transit to Vikings games, out of 60,000 that's 18,000 transit users, which would cost $72,000 per game. For comparison the Vikings will pay Mike Wallace $247,000 per catch this year, or $628,269 per game, almost 9 times the cost of the transit fares to the game.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby intercomnut » December 20th, 2015, 10:34 am

planetxan wrote:
fehler wrote:With the cost of tickets being what they are, the Vikings/Twins/Gophers can just include transit fare. Really, is it that much more?
Implant a disposable Go To chip into the tickets with a day pass good for the day of the game until 2 am (the same as a Visitor Pass). If the ticket gets used on transit it is charged, otherwise not. (i.e. the cost to the team is the aggregate of the used tickets instead of all the tickets.) The pass would only be need to be used once to register.

The chip can also be used for the turnstyles at the stadium/venue, just like the turnstyles in metros all over the world. Easy for everyone. No downloading, no printing, no guessing, no problem. (No folding your ticket, though)

I don't know what transit passes go for wholesale, but figure $4 for a pass ($4.50 Visitor, $6 Day, so a discount), about 30% of people take transit to Vikings games, out of 60,000 that's 18,000 transit users, which would cost $72,000 per game. For comparison the Vikings will pay Mike Wallace $247,000 per catch this year, or $628,269 per game, almost 9 times the cost of the transit fares to the game.
I haven't gone to a sporting event in awhile, but I feel like people usually print their tickets from home, making this impossible.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby John21 » December 20th, 2015, 11:16 am

Not this season, but the few prior, it was a free ride to every Timberwolves game. I just had to show my game ticket when transit cops were going through the train or to the driver when I got on the bus.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby mplsjaromir » December 20th, 2015, 12:43 pm

John21 wrote:Not this season, but the few prior, it was a free ride to every Timberwolves game. I just had to show my game ticket when transit cops were going through the train or to the driver when I got on the bus.
With the Wolves new, maddening "e-ticket" policy free transit rides now is impossible. I guess if Metro Transit ever did QR readers it migh be possible.

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Re: Public Transit News and Current Happenings

Postby mulad » December 20th, 2015, 4:30 pm

Yeah. Transit tickets using QR codes or something similar would work. I'm hoping Metro Transit also has this on their radar for mobile ticketing, though I wouldn't recommend relying on mobile ticketing for major events, since cellular service often gets clogged up when there are crowds.


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