Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

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acs
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby acs » November 28th, 2014, 1:49 pm

Did anyone else catch the fact that they want to increase the number of drivers along the road from 26,000 to 35,000? Talk about stroad hell.

Tcmetro
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby Tcmetro » December 13th, 2014, 8:57 am

An update on the Robert St. transit study is included in the RCRRA meeting packet for the 16th. Project staff are proposing to conclude the study with no decision on an LPA, as it is desired to update the outlook on land use in the corridor. It is assumed that after land use changes are made, an LPA could be picked during a potential DEIS process.

Effectively, this project is shelved for a while.

https://www.co.dakota.mn.us/Government/ ... packet.pdf

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woofner
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby woofner » December 13th, 2014, 1:25 pm

The way I read it, they're trying to get the affected municipalities to adopt TOD zoning, so they can use the greater potential development to justify higher investment in transit. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but that seems risky given the implied reluctance of the municipalities to do so.

It's clear that someone really wants this to be a streetcar project, since the Met Council has basically already designated it for at least aBRT service. Given that Robert scored significantly worse than any other aBRT corridor in the 2012 study, it seems like a stretch to make this corridor seem in any way justified for streetcar service. Maybe if they just built the damn aBRT, development would follow and streetcar could be overlaid eventually. But because someone wants to stroke his (it's certainly a man) train boner, instead it's just as likely that they won't be able to get the municipalities to zone along, and they'll just end up building aBRT after failing to justify a streetcar for a long time.

Again, this may be an overly pessimistic reading.
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David Greene
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby David Greene » December 14th, 2014, 10:49 pm

woofner wrote:they'll just end up building aBRT after failing to justify a streetcar for a long time.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Delays allow that money to be more productively used elsewhere.

mattaudio
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby mattaudio » December 15th, 2014, 9:04 am

Or less productively used elsewhere. (See: Redirecting aBRT funds to pay for park & ride ramp)

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby David Greene » December 15th, 2014, 11:51 am

That's not necessarily less productive.

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby mattaudio » December 15th, 2014, 11:56 am

Since it's not material to actual aBRT on Robert Street, I'll just refer you to Peter's earlier epic takedown of your claim in the SWLRT thread.
https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=18& ... 627#p61627

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby Tcmetro » December 15th, 2014, 12:20 pm

I'll have to agree with Matt on this one. There is more than enough funds for suburban park and ride developments. Just this month, we have seen openings in Newport, Vadnais Heights, Lino Lakes, and Maple Plain. A few months ago lots opened in Brooklyn Park, Blaine, Ham Lake, and East Bethel. Carver's new lot is opening next month, and one in Shakopee soon after. Addtionally, significant expansion is planned along the Green Line and Blue Line extensions and the new Gold Line. And new and expanded lots are already under consideration for Edina, Minnetonka, and Apple Valley.

In short, there is more than enough money going around for new park and ride facilities. To raid funds that are meant to improve urban bus services and shift them to suburban park and rides is a clear attempt to shift money out of urban areas. Look at how much citizens have had to organize and make noise just to get some bus shelters and benches in North Minneapolis. There aren't citizen groups in any of the above listed suburbs that have been making park and ride expansion one of their top priorities. Expansion of suburban park and rides at the expense of better urban bus services makes suburban communities look more desirable than urban communities, and when we are considering Congestion Management and Air Quality (CMAQ) grants, perhaps we should consider if the projects are going to foster a car-orientated lifestyle or a transit-orientated lifestyle. If such measures were considered than perhaps places like North Minneapolis wouldn't have to fight for simple bus shelters.

To bring this around to Robert Street, perhaps arterial BRT isn't the best option at this moment. IMO, the corridor needs a reorganized bus network, with better frequencies. What the corridor does not need is a park and ride, as that will benefit far fewer than better bus service will, and will not spur economic development in the struggling areas of Robert Street.

imperator3733
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby imperator3733 » January 7th, 2015, 10:04 pm

The Robert Street corridor definitely needs a reorganized bus network. Arterial BRT on Robert itself should be part of that, but the surrounding areas need better service as well. Looking at the area on the Metro Transit system map is almost like looking at a black hole. There should be several more lines, with better frequencies on all of them, and also weekend service on all (I know at least the 75 is weekday-only). An improved network would help get some TOD along Robert, and then maybe in a few decades there would be enough justification for a LRT subway (my long term dream for the area).

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby Tcmetro » February 16th, 2015, 3:10 pm

The final round of Robert St meetings will be next month, wrapping up the Alternatives Analysis.

5-7 pm, March 10th, at Neighborhood House
4-6 pm, March 12th, at Dakota County Northern Service Center

Final Steering Committee meeting will be on April 16th, 330pm, at Northern Service Center to provide an overview of the March meetings and the draft implementation plan.

Page 7, https://www.co.dakota.mn.us/Government/ ... packet.pdf

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby transitplanner » February 25th, 2015, 11:01 pm

Tcmetro wrote:The final round of Robert St meetings will be next month, wrapping up the Alternatives Analysis.

5-7 pm, March 10th, at Neighborhood House
4-6 pm, March 12th, at Dakota County Northern Service Center

Final Steering Committee meeting will be on April 16th, 330pm, at Northern Service Center to provide an overview of the March meetings and the draft implementation plan.

Page 7, https://www.co.dakota.mn.us/Government/ ... packet.pdf
I would just note that the recommendation to "do nothing" from the Steering Committee was negotiated under the previous mayor of West St. Paul, a strong streetcar advocate. The new mayor is adamantly opposed to streetcar and, thus, I think the recommendation is worth revisiting. The technical recommendation was Arterial BRT with continued exploration of streetcar in the St. Paul segment only. It would be nice to see some investment in this corridor, which is very transit dependent, but holding out for streetcar is an extreme long shot and the cities aren't even that gusto about serious land use changes anyway.

If you live in this corridor, I would suggest participating in this step and voicing your opinion that 6 years and $2 million of study should not result in a "do nothing" recommendation. Also, if you don't live in the corridor but you think this corridor failing is good for other investments, think again. It doesn't work that way. Arterial BRT is the corridor and the region's best chance to not waste money on Robert Street.

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby grant1simons2 » July 29th, 2015, 9:23 pm


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Anondson
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Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby Anondson » July 29th, 2015, 9:32 pm

I saw "report from June" and immediately thought "they're back at it?"

Heh.

grant1simons2
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby grant1simons2 » July 29th, 2015, 9:47 pm

I was going to clarify that because I thought the same exact thing when I hit submit

acs
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby acs » July 29th, 2015, 10:30 pm

When Dakota county inevitably goes to the media and cries how they aren't getting their fair share of CTIB love, all we need to do is point here and say, "you had your shot".

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby Silophant » July 29th, 2015, 10:45 pm

They had their shot with the Red Line. This is a second shot, for whatever reason.

Also, shaking my head at the conclusion: "aBRT scored significantly higher overall than modern streetcar, and is about 1/20th of the price. Thus, we're recommending further study of both modes, in hopes that we can pull something out of our asses to justify the streetcar. Just like Portland."

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby DanPatchToget » April 15th, 2016, 9:33 am

I suggested a trolleybus (buses with overhead wires) as a compromise between ABRT and streetcar. I forget the reason why it wasn't looked at but I feel it would be a good compromise for this corridor; cheaper bus, but permanence of a streetcar line.

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby EOst » April 15th, 2016, 12:39 pm

Trolley buses are the worst of both worlds; same shitty ride experience as any other bus (potholes, jerky, weaving, etc.), but you also have ugly overhead wires.

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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby MNdible » April 15th, 2016, 12:44 pm

Yeah, I feel like with battery and charging improvements, overhead wire-powered vehicles running on streets are about to become dinosaurs.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Robert Street Corridor Arterial BRT

Postby FISHMANPET » April 15th, 2016, 1:28 pm

Electric operation of buses (be it overhead wires or battery) does improve the ride quality of a bus. Acceleration is much smoother, though transmissions are pretty good at this point so that's not a huuuge issue.


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