Northstar Commuter Rail

[David Greene]

My cuz cuz is doin' good.

Rep. Knoblach and Rep. Howe have now come out in favor of extending Northstar. Just a year ago I would never have imagined in a million years that this could happen.

I think it bodes well for the session. Perhaps there is some room for regional transit sales tax options in a transportation bill. These guys have to at least have some kind of funding solution, even if they really don't intend to do it. They've publicly said they want it.

[mulad]

The Grip/Isaiah folks will be hosting an event from 7-9 pm on November 12th at the River's Edge Convention Center in St. Cloud to push for studying the extension.

http://www.sctimes.com/story/opinion/20 ... /75121184/

[mulad]

They had a turnout of 200 at the Grip/Isaiah event in St. Cloud on Thursday to support the line extension.

http://www.sctimes.com/story/news/local ... autologin=

[Mdcastle]

With a 90 minute travel time between Minneapolis and St. Cloud and a 15 minute layover on each end, the Northstar could operate a 105-minute frequency with two trainsets. A more liberal 80 minute travel time and 10 minute layover would result in a 90-minute frequency. Certainly feasible to some extent, and definitely desirable.

Other new commuter rail lines provide significant midday service (Miami, SLC, Denver) and others are looking into more robust all-day service (Seattle, LA, DFW). IMO, Minneapolis needs to provide an all-day service, for one, because the St. Cloud-Minneapolis pair is probably the most important intercity link in the state, and two, to create a culture that is receptive to using trains and buses for intercity travel.

I couldn't agree more. I also think it's important to note that there are no plans to significantly change 94 or 10 between the NW suburbs and St. Cloud, so adding frequent regional rail will help alleviate the demand a bit. Or at the very least, help promote more urban development in that corridor.

No significant plans that are actually funded

There are a lot of significant plans on paper and pdf.

[mulad]

That leads to the question, do plans of the same depth and breadth exist for Northstar? Because they should.

[TroyGBiv]

Is this only a state issue now? Is there federal money to do the last 30 miles to complete the connection to St Cloud? I think that they didn't have enough money to do the complete run. Would this have to be totally state funded? It seems like the Northstar line would enjoy much greater ridership ... I haven't heard of anything being kicked around at the capitol.

[Mikey]

I thought the biggest cost reason was the lack of a second track from Big Lake to Becker. BNSF is wrapping up building that second track for their own needs now, so we'll see.

I think any all-day service would require track improvements in the cities as well.

I still would like to see this through-routed with a St Paul to Rochester service

[David Greene]

I still would like to see this through-routed with a St Paul to Rochester service

Through-route down the Kenilworth corridor to the CP/Soo and over to UP into Saint Paul.

[mulad]

The other big piece of necessary infrastructure, at least if we want all-day service, is a third main track between the Northtown rail yard past the Fridley station up to the Coon Creek junction, where the Hinckley Subdivision branches off to head toward Duluth. That had been pursued with a TIGER grant request several years ago and was pegged at $100 million -- pretty ridiculous for just a couple miles of track, but things like a grade-separation of Foley Boulevard were included in that price. The grade-separation is already proceeding on its own, so the cost for the rest of the project should go down, and we might be able to get a multi-party agreement where some money comes from the railroad, some comes from the feds, and some comes from the state. The state+federal money could also be divided among two or more pots since the third track is also needed for NLX to Duluth.

Negotiating an easement or track usage rights with BNSF will be a big cost, perhaps also in the $100 million range, considering that's about what it cost for the line from Minneapolis to Big Lake. Big Lake to St. Cloud is a shorter distance, which should bring it down, and the railroad might consider the third main project a payment of sorts. But whatever discounts might come from that could be counteracted somewhat if we want to run more trains.

In an ideal world, the station costs would be pretty low, but there would probably need to be a parking structure added in St. Cloud, and a layover facility of some sort there (it wouldn't need to be much more than a shed if maintenance can continue in Big Lake). A station should probably also be added in Becker. Clear Lake might not be a bad idea either, even though the town is very small -- whenever I drive back from St. Cloud, it looks like half the traffic from U.S. 10 is branching off there to head across the river to Clearwater and beyond. I'm doubtful if any of that traffic can be captured, though.

I feel like the Northstar fleet is bloated for the amount of service we get today, but unfortunately I think it might need to be expanded in order to serve St. Cloud. Probably only one or two more sets of equipment, but that still adds up to a significant chunk of cash.

So this could still end up costing $250 million -- hopefully less if the individual parts get teased apart sufficiently and we only build what is really needed. Fortunately that's toward the low end of the cost spectrum for FTA New Starts projects, but it's very complex to go through that program. It could make as much sense to just arrange some bonding and try to divide the costs among the cities/counties along the route in an equitable way.

[Mikey]

Is there a way to get a St Cloud station on the downtown/west side of the river? Or would that even really be ideal since the Amtrak station would still be on the main line?

[mulad]

I'm a bit conflicted about that. Personally my preference is to keep the station where it is since it could be shared with services running farther north. But only the Empire Builder uses it today, and there are only plans for one more daily round-trip in that direction as things stand now (probably ending in Fargo, though possibly extended to Winnipeg someday).

A station across the river could make more sense, since it could be closer to downtown, though the tracks closest to downtown are curved, which makes things more challenging (not impossible, but more complicated if there was ever going to be level boarding, for instance). The tracks only straighten out once they get to the yard area.

But my big worry is that they'd try to put the station at the park-and-ride lot that sits at the vee between Lincoln Avenue and U.S. 10 on the southeastern end of town.

[mattaudio]

My idea to resolve that:
- Have Northstar terminate across the river in Downtown St. Cloud on existing tracks, without much parking.
- Have Northstar also stop at the Park & Ride lot near Lincoln and Hwy 10, with the existing parking.
- Move the Amtrak station south from the current station near St. Germain to the Northstar P&R station near Lincoln & Hwy 10
- Ensure good local transit service between Amtrak and the city

[Tiller]

http://finance-commerce.com/transit/201 ... r-changes/

Metro Transit is considering adjusting its Northstar Commuter Rail Line service and is inviting the public to have a say in the changes.

[Mdcastle]

As far as through running to St. Paul, was it ever determined if there was a preference for the Soo vs the BNSF for commuter rail between the downtowns- seems the former could have a stop on the west side of downtown by the Wild arena and the Science Museum as well as near the soccer stadium; the BNSF could have a stop next to the fairgrounds.

[Silophant]

http://finance-commerce.com/transit/201 ... r-changes/

Metro Transit is considering adjusting its Northstar Commuter Rail Line service and is inviting the public to have a say in the changes.

Looks like the only major adjustment they're considering is adding a midday northbound trip, either on every weekday or possibly just Fridays. Not much of a change, but an improvement, and probably about all they can do without a major funding increase.

However, correct me if I'm wrong, but AIUI, Northstar operates six rush-hour trips in the primary direction with five trainsets, with one reverse trip to allow the first transit to make the sixth trip and leave all five trainsets in Minneapolis for the start of the afternoon/evening trips. Thus, a midday northbound trip would also mean an afternoon southbound trip, right? Seems like the survey would mention that, but I guess maybe they figure ridership will be so low that it's effectively deadheading. Does anyone know what the ridership on the existing reverse trips is like?

[mattaudio]

I'd like to see this as an opportunity to reimagine Northstar as a regional rail service, with all-day service rather than commuter service. Even at the sacrifice of commuter ridership (not like it's that much anyways). Maybe service every other hour in each direction? I wonder how much that would be to secure those operational rights from BNSF. But it's clear that the trainsets could be MUCH more efficiently used with a different service pattern.

[MNdible]

People keep saying this, but really -- there's just no way it makes sense to run a diesel train every hour.

There's going to be like 10 people on a 2pm St. Cloud to Minneapolis run.

[mattaudio]

I've been on plenty of regional trains in Europe that seem to have 10 people on them...

[MNdible]

"Because they do it in Europe" does not work as a response in every single instance, just most of them.

The labor cost, the energy cost, the carbon cost of running a train that's at 1% capacity is simply not justifiable.

[acs]

Those European regional trains also run at massive losses just as they would here. The difference being that those countries have profitable long-distance high speed lines which can cover those losses and use the regional system as a feeder.